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  1. #221
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    I agree that he shouldn't have named names (outside of worshiping the greatness that is Kieron "Man who writes good about video games and comic book characters" Gillen, of course :p). It contributed nothing to the original article and just served to potentially cause backlash against the named names (even John's article points out how people could get confused). And if you don't think people can get confused over who the "bad guys" are: Look at just about any thread involving a news story in these forums.

    But threatening legal action was the wrong approach. A counter article is the right approach (and there is no way eurogamer would NOT post it).

    Remember folks: Two wrongs don't make a right. If you don't like people for being unprofessional and advertising, don't be unprofessional and attack people.

    And before people say "He was just reporting on the truth". Sometimes you name names, sometimes you don't. Sorry, but the world is not black and white. That article was complaining about general trends. The specifics should have been "Well known journalists have been doing this" and that is it. There was no need to specifically name names and question the integrity of other writers (who may or may not have any). Mountain Dew man was mentioned specifically because that aspect of the story was about him. Whatsherface and the other guy were just "one of many" in the other section of the story. Notice how John didn't specify which winner responded to him, and just gave a vague blurb.

    If he thought that whatsherface was important, he should have said "A well known journalist defended the blah blah. But, at the same time, said journalist had previously gushed about the unreleased game, suggesting this might just be a symptom of a bigger problem". The exact same message is sent across, the comments section can name names, and people who aren't going to do any independent research won't be biased against an individual.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by The First Door View Post
    I agree with John, this whole thing is an utter disgrace. I don't think it is just journalists who have acted disgracefully, though. Some of comments from us gamers have been horrid and I bet much worse has been sent via email.

    In the end, I can't help feel a little sorry for Dave Cook even though he clearly has made a mistake.
    His first mistake was sticking with that name. He needs to own his brand. Pablo "Meth" Cook would make a far better byline. I digress.

    I read Rab Florence's articles over at EG but I have no sense of history about him. I only really started checking out EG regularly this year. I can't say I'm a fan of his work, but it sucks to be put into a position like this. I read John's soapbox about the affair but it's easy to take a stand when you own your platform.

    Greedy journalists? Shocking.

    It's what happened afterwards, after everyone was caught out, that helps define my own reaction.

    Owning your mistake would be good, and Pablo Cook appears to have done that. Others, not so much.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
    I'm rather disappointed that RPS isn't writing about any of this in an official way btw., this is exactly what they SHOULD be prominently writing about, but I guess there's a reputation to protect with sponsors and publishers and all that and John has to use his Blog for any of this...
    John said this: https://twitter.com/botherer/status/261456123855523842

    I can understand that point, but this wouldn't be the first time RPS would have written about the industry rather than the games.

  4. #224
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
    I'm rather disappointed that RPS isn't writing about any of this in an official way btw., this is exactly what they SHOULD be prominently writing about, but I guess there's a reputation to protect with sponsors and publishers and all that and John has to use his Blog for any of this...
    Let's wait a while and see what comes up. I am sure RPS won't let something like this go without mentioning.

  5. #225
    Dave Cook's stance: "I said something stupid and I am upset that someone had the balls to call me out on it."

  6. #226
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    Edit: The link's been posted already.

    @Dexter, appreciate you posting the earlier, unedited article here.
    Last edited by Shane; 25-10-2012 at 04:28 PM.

  7. #227
    Lesser Hivemind Node Gorzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
    I'm rather disappointed that RPS isn't writing about any of this in an official way btw., this is exactly what they SHOULD be prominently writing about, but I guess there's a reputation to protect with sponsors and publishers and all that and John has to use his Blog for any of this...
    To be fair, maybe they are working on something, this looks exactly like the kind of thing they like to talk about. But it also looks like the kind of thing John can't just go and post, give them a day or two.

  8. #228
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Legal action threatened for this? Seriously?

    This is not libel. Not even close. If this counts as libel then why aren't comedians being thrown into prison for mocking Donald Trump?

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/tru...:quote:default

    There are no lies being told in that (Florence's) article. There are no personal attacks or character assassinations. It's at least ten times more civil than the advertisements that have been playing on our TVs since September for politicians looking for election and re-election.

    Can it be argued that it's a bit rude to name names? Sure. But it's not being done here for the sake of being rude. And it's sure as hell not illegal.

    If this had any chance to go to the courts and not be thrown aside by the judge with an angry complaint to the plaintiffs for wasting his/her time then there is something horribly, horribly wrong.
    Last edited by Shooop; 25-10-2012 at 04:35 PM.
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  9. #229
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Bakke View Post
    Dave Cook's stance: "I said something stupid and I am upset that someone had the balls to call me out on it."
    What this guy said.


    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    If he thought that whatsherface was important, he should have said "A well known journalist defended the blah blah. But, at the same time, said journalist had previously gushed about the unreleased game, suggesting this might just be a symptom of a bigger problem". The exact same message is sent across, the comments section can name names, and people who aren't going to do any independent research won't be biased against an individual.
    I disagree. He was quoting items that they said. Using their names was mandatory for good journalism. You wouldn't write an article about someone having said something and never use their name. If Wayne Rooney (first person to pop into my head) said something to a fellow footballer along the lines of what Dave said (something small but insulting none the less), the news papers wouldn't run headlines "Footballer calls other Footballer out!!!". It'd use both their names and the quote.

    And pre-empting you might suggest that he doesn't use either, and just starts saying "someone did this and someone else did that", then the article is even less meaningful.

  10. #230
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    What this guy said.




    I disagree. He was quoting items that they said. Using their names was mandatory for good journalism. You wouldn't write an article about someone having said something and never use their name. If Wayne Rooney (first person to pop into my head) said something to a fellow footballer along the lines of what Dave said (something small but insulting none the less), the news papers wouldn't run headlines "Footballer calls other Footballer out!!!". It'd use both their names and the quote.

    And pre-empting you might suggest that he doesn't use either, and just starts saying "someone did this and someone else did that", then the article is even less meaningful.
    Or you just don't do a direct quote, and you instead paraphrase.

    You are talking about a story of "Wayne Rooney is a dick" not "Footballers in general are dicks". There is a difference. The former needs a direct quote. The latter can obliquely reference it without directly calling a person out. By directly quoting whatsherface, the article starts to shift into "Whatsherface is a sellout" not "Gaming Journalism has a lot of questionable people"

    Imagine you are talking to your boss. Your team just failed to meet a deadline. It isn't a major failure, but the boss is asking you what went wrong. The problem was a general lack of understanding what the goals were.
    I hope you can understand the difference between:
    "We were unsure what the requirements of our end design needed to be. I think that if we spent more time narrowing down the requirements it would have been more successful"
    and
    "Bill dropped the ball by making crappy use-cases, Jim didn't bother to check with you, Ted misinterpreted what the customer said, and Jill didn't follow up with the customer"

    The former says "There was a problem". The latter says "These people are problems". And it is hilarious that this occurred in an article about how people need to be more careful with how they present themselves.
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  11. #231
    Lesser Hivemind Node Faldrath's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's not like Rab was hacking into people's private correspondence and posting it online. Twitter isn't confidential.

  12. #232
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Imagine you are talking to your boss. Your team just failed to meet a deadline. It isn't a major failure, but the boss is asking you what went wrong. The problem was a general lack of understanding what the goals were.
    I hope you can understand the difference between:
    "We were unsure what the requirements of our end design needed to be. I think that if we spent more time narrowing down the requirements it would have been more successful"
    and
    "Bill dropped the ball by making crappy use-cases, Jim didn't bother to check with you, Ted misinterpreted what the customer said, and Jill didn't follow up with the customer"

    The former says "There was a problem". The latter says "These people are problems". And it is hilarious that this occurred in an article about how people need to be more careful with how they present themselves.
    The entire purpose of journalism to to explain what's happening. Paraphrasing like that is fine there because it's your boss and you (probably) don't want to get those people fired. But journalism is about telling everyone what's happened/happening.

    By directly quoting people he is giving us real-world examples of what the problem is. Otherwise it's just "One guy somewhere, sometime took part in an ad campaign. And that's bad."
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  13. #233
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I hope you can understand the difference between:
    "We were unsure what the requirements of our end design needed to be. I think that if we spent more time narrowing down the requirements it would have been more successful"
    and
    "Bill dropped the ball by making crappy use-cases, Jim didn't bother to check with you, Ted misinterpreted what the customer said, and Jill didn't follow up with the customer"

    The former says "There was a problem". The latter says "These people are problems". And it is hilarious that this occurred in an article about how people need to be more careful with how they present themselves.
    I do. In the first you're sugar coating the issues. In the second you're blaming everyone but yourself. What you should be doing is blaming everyone including yourself. I realize you gave a hypothetical and those two statements could be about two different projects, but since they're in relation to the same example I'll assume they're about the same project.

    Saying "X in general is bad" without any proper references is crap journalism and comes across as mere speculation. I could write up a piece on a group of people, lets say footballers again, and not give any direct quotes/evidence to suggest they're like that. Now it's just a rag piece. It belongs in The Sun or The Daily Mail. By naming and quoting people you're giving meat to your news piece.

    Mr. Cook shouldve thought about the knock on effects of what he was saying before he said it. He had time to. You always have time online to think before you say. And people who work online and in the media should be well aware of just how critical the internet can be and how important it is that they don't say or do things which can reflect badly on them.

  14. #234
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    Not even REMOTELY libel.

    Eurogamer got scared without consulting legal advice and erred on the side of caution. 'Course it could've been commercial pressure as well.

  15. #235
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    Calling people and publications out on going along with industry bullshit is exactly what this industry needs to win back some trust and maybe as a consequence some of these so-called "Gaming Journalists" (which nowadays are more often than not Advertisement Mouthpieces) would actually grow some backbone and develop some integrity in the process and less of what we read would look like directly sponsored pieces of "OMGOMGOMG! NEWEST GAME COMING OUT, BEST EVER, HYPE HYPE HYPE! 15/10, GOOOOOTTYYY!!! HYPE!" and regurgitating Press Releases in their "own style" instead of actual investigation and employing critical thinking to examine an issue or a product.
    Last edited by Dexter; 25-10-2012 at 04:59 PM.

  16. #236
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
    Calling people and publications out on going along with industry bullshit is exactly what this industry needs to win back some trust and maybe as a consequence some of these so-called "Gaming Journalists" (which nowadays are more often than not Advertisement Mouthpieces) would actually grow some backbone and develop some integrity in the process and less of what we read would look like directly sponsored pieces of "OMGOMGOMG! NEWEST GAME COMING OUT, BEST EVER, HYPE HYPE HYPE! 15/10, GOOOOOTTYYY!!! HYPE!".
    They remind me of a hyper seven year old who has a new favourite movie every week. It's almost endearing. But not really.

  17. #237
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
    Calling people and publications out on going along with industry bullshit is exactly what this industry needs to win back some trust and maybe as a consequence some of these so-called "Gaming Journalists" (which nowadays are more often than not Advertisement Mouthpieces) would actually grow some backbone and develop some integrity in the process and less of what we read would look like directly sponsored pieces of "OMGOMGOMG! NEWEST GAME COMING OUT, BEST EVER, HYPE HYPE HYPE! 15/10, GOOOOOTTYYY!!! HYPE!".
    Which raises a point. How many of the big gaming sites and their journalists do people actually respect the opinion of and would listen to them when reviewing a game?

    I can't even read the words "game journalism" in relation to most sites without it sounding like "gayme jurnilzmmms" in my head.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Mr. Cook shouldve thought about the knock on effects of what he was saying before he said it. He had time to.
    I think this is a key point with regards to Cook. He was speaking on a public forum, where anyone who follows him/follows both him and John would have a direct view on what was said. All Rab did was repeat this, and explain the errors in integrity.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I disagree. He was quoting items that they said.
    You're doing it again, don't feed the trolls.
    People were happily ignoring him and now comes the thread derail.

    OT:
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ouble-act.html
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-dogs-lie.html
    http://ca.ign.com/articles/2011/11/0...-of-lara-croft
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...evolution.html
    http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/07/clou...-dissidia-012/
    http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/02/the-...rror-is-dying/
    http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/17/inte...oshi-minagawa/
    http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/11/inte...akamasa-shiba/

    Saw these linked, these are from the writer who threatened to sue.
    Every single one of them reads as a PR release.

    She should have kept her mouth shut... Where there is smoke there is fire.
    From Robert Florence article the reader would barely get a momentary faint whiff of charcoal, but with how this has (d)evolved and you look closer it's an apocalyptic bellowing pillar of smoke with her name on it.
    Last edited by Finicky; 25-10-2012 at 05:05 PM.

  20. #240
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    You're doing it again, don't feed the trolls.
    People were happily ignoring him and now comes the thread derail.
    One day I'll learn...

    I'll put a post-it note up on my monitor reminding me!

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