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  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Because obviously your vastly superior knowledge of games eclipses theirs, right? And the games you play are objectively superior games because [insert fat tony article here].

    I don't even slightly hate to break it to you but wherever your tastes may lie, they're not superior. Soz.
    when you see morons like myself having more knownledge in games than the supposed critics, then surely something is wrong with this no? or maybe you are just butthurt(ops, sorry this name get people sentimental around here) that i am criticizing your fellow game journos who just happen to give a high score to the indie crap that you developed eh? but carry on with your general excuses,stonewalling and relativism, it's quite amusing really...

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    None of these apply to BLOPS2.
    Crysis has turret sections and regenerating health too. What does that have to do with the quality of a game?
    If anything shame on you for letting the screen turn red...
    You said you would give every COD a 11\10 so surely, this apply to lots of then. But do tell me, does BLOPS2 have become a normal FPS again? As in, no linear corridors, no retarded damage system, no immortal NPCs to FOLLOW, no scripted stealth sections, no doritos and mt dw, no respawning enemies, no retarded story... But sure 11\10 eh?

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf View Post
    when you see morons like myself having more knownledge in games than the supposed critics, then surely something is wrong with this no? or maybe you are just butthurt(ops, sorry this name get people sentimental around here) that i am criticizing your fellow game journos who just happen to give a high score to the indie crap that you developed eh? but carry on with your general excuses,stonewalling and relativism, it's quite amusing really...
    They have to play a wide variety of games, so can't focus in on a single type of game (what was the last CoD game you played, incidentally?) and they first and foremost have to be good writers. People would rather read a moron that writes well than your own poorly expressed genius, alas.

  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    They have to play a wide variety of games, so can't focus in on a single type of game (what was the last CoD game you played, incidentally?) and they first and foremost have to be good writers. People would rather read a moron that writes well than your own poorly expressed genius, alas.
    The last CoD i played was Blops, and most of the trivial bullshit i spotted in mere minutes. And i play a wide variety of games too,else i would be drooling with COD and doritos...

    As of being good writers i don't know. You have excused Lauren of her poor writing by saying the editor demand inane things so that probaly applies to the Gaming journos in general...
    Last edited by dnf; 15-11-2012 at 11:56 PM.

  5. #845
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    Why has this thread not died. Seriously. I mean, I don't think it's even relevant to the original topic anymore. It's now an argument about whether games critics are bad, right? And whether CoD is good? I don't even want to know how those arguments are connected. Seriously, guys, let the thread die and start up any lingering debates in a new one. Megathreads like this that don't even stay with the title topic are pointless.

  6. #846
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf View Post
    But do tell me, does BLOPS2 have become a normal FPS again? As in, no linear corridors, no retarded damage system, no immortal NPCs to FOLLOW, no scripted stealth sections, no doritos and mt dw, no respawning enemies, no retarded story... But sure 11\10 eh?
    It's still a linear shooter with immortal NPC you follow and scripted scenes. Like Half-Life 2 or Metro.

    For the sake of the argument, I'll paste something I wrote somewhere else:

    "Choices start with the loadout. A tool kit allows you to open containers and gets new weapons and gadgets, hack or control drones and turrets or acces new parts of the map. I'm pretty sure at least some of these options can be disabled by the enemy if you're not careful. Also some levels are big, like Crysis 2 big.

    Then you have the Strike Force missions. These are a parallel story. What you achieve here has a direct influence on the main campaign in terms of who you fight, how you fight, who helps you and on other aspects of the narrative. I'm not sure how many there are, I managed to successfully complete the SF in four missions but IGN has five in their walkthrough. They're picked from a pool of missions based on your actions.

    In the main storyline there are some telegraphed choices - like press E or Space to do X or Y. You choose to spare or execute people, who or what to play as, where your team should go and other stuff specific to the mission.

    Other branching paths come naturally through the action. For example you can act in a way that stops the enemy from destroying certain items that add another piece to the story. You can become aware of someone else's actions. Sometimes all that's added is a different cutscene or new dialogue, sometimes someone ends up dead. It's not always clear when you stumble upon such branching moments and that's what makes it great. After finishing the game, I learned that some things I thought were scripted can unfold in a very different way. Some crucial story beats could have been solved differently. I honestly have no clue how some of the alternate things can happen. The final third of the game is the one that is shaped most by your actions as all the pieces set up in the previous levels come together.

    And finally, in some levels you can totally fail at stealth or in completing objectives and the game adapts."

    Note that the RPS review barely mentions these details.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    my head moves faster then my thumbs...that should have read: "When the HR depts of corporations and conflict of interest and ethics commissioners in government etc draft..."
    That makes even less sense than your last post

    And now point out exactly where any of this supports your original assertion. Because tbh if this is anything to go by: -

    In essence a potential conflict of interest will exist whenever a member of the University community is in a
    position to influence the conduct of research, academic, human resource, business, financial,
    governance or other matters in ways that could lead to personal gain for the member or a related
    party, or give improper advantage to others, to the detriment of the University or other members
    of the University community
    I'd say the example is referring to something self contained, where in a clear degree of loss can be established within an institution (X was passed over for promotion Vs Y because Y happened to go to the same school as Z who was adjudicating). You have to be able to demonstrate that there is a loss through that methodology. As reviews are ultimately opinion pieces, it's nigh on impossible to apply that kind of rigour to them, especially when they don't fall out of line with similar opinions from others.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 16-11-2012 at 07:34 AM.
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  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    It's still a linear shooter with immortal NPC you follow and scripted scenes. Like Half-Life 2 or Metro.

    For the sake of the argument, I'll paste something I wrote somewhere else:

    "Choices start with the loadout. A tool kit allows you to open containers and gets new weapons and gadgets, hack or control drones and turrets or acces new parts of the map. I'm pretty sure at least some of these options can be disabled by the enemy if you're not careful. Also some levels are big, like Crysis 2 big.

    Then you have the Strike Force missions. These are a parallel story. What you achieve here has a direct influence on the main campaign in terms of who you fight, how you fight, who helps you and on other aspects of the narrative. I'm not sure how many there are, I managed to successfully complete the SF in four missions but IGN has five in their walkthrough. They're picked from a pool of missions based on your actions.

    In the main storyline there are some telegraphed choices - like press E or Space to do X or Y. You choose to spare or execute people, who or what to play as, where your team should go and other stuff specific to the mission.

    Other branching paths come naturally through the action. For example you can act in a way that stops the enemy from destroying certain items that add another piece to the story. You can become aware of someone else's actions. Sometimes all that's added is a different cutscene or new dialogue, sometimes someone ends up dead. It's not always clear when you stumble upon such branching moments and that's what makes it great. After finishing the game, I learned that some things I thought were scripted can unfold in a very different way. Some crucial story beats could have been solved differently. I honestly have no clue how some of the alternate things can happen. The final third of the game is the one that is shaped most by your actions as all the pieces set up in the previous levels come together.

    And finally, in some levels you can totally fail at stealth or in completing objectives and the game adapts."

    Note that the RPS review barely mentions these details.
    RPS reviews are too verbose and pretentious, like they wish they are reviewing movies instead of games(i agree with the part they say it would be nice to view the millions spend in your average cod going to games like Deus EX or Bloodlines though). Half life 2 and metro are overrated games too mind you. This Blops2 seems like a step in the right direction if compared to other CODs if what you say is accurate, but nothing to write home about in regards to the genre or gaming in general.

  9. #849
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf View Post
    when you see morons like myself having more knownledge in games than the supposed critics, then surely something is wrong with this no?
    Well, that's the thing really isn't it. I don't see that and I suspect anyone else reading this topic apart from maybe your mum would be hard pressed to see that either, y'know?

    So it's really not the most convincing argument for games journalism being tits up, man. It's fairly weak stuff and no amount of repeating that these people are illiterate in gaming will actually make it so considering it's an accusation you've plucked *entirely* out of your backside and seemingly levelled at an entire discipline and no-one in particular.
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  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Proven? She gave DX:HR one of the lowest scores it received. How exactly is that proof positive of being either compromised or behaving unethically?
    Oh right, I guess the lies, the attempts at hiding the truth, the constant Squeenix previews/"not reviews but pretty much reviews" etc can be forgotten about. I see your head is as firmly buried in the sand as it was 10 pages back.



    http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/201...-solar-empire/

    5/5 stars

    http://www.mobygames.com/developer/s...loperId,40973/

    Should this man really be reviewing games from companies he's worked previously as a consultant for?
    He wrote the manual for one of their games and disclosed this publicly when he first reviewed Sins of a Solar Empire.

    I guess in your world, being a full time salaried employee in a company for 10 years = a once off project writing a manual?
    Last edited by Vicious; 16-11-2012 at 04:59 AM.

  11. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Worked for NBC while it was owned by Vivendi. But he slags off Blizzard (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415896) - must have had a bad experience there.
    Are you actually mentally deficient? Working in PR for a games company for 10 years and subsequently reviewing one of their games = working as an occasional Actor for a broadcasting company thats parent company also owns a publishing company than owns a development company which created a game that he reviewed?

    Either you're mentally deficient, or you're living in cuckoo land if you think the two in any way equate.


    You mean the guy that talked about how awesome Sensible Software and Cannon Fodder were until they gave him a job on the sequel?
    Everyone talked about how awesome Sensible Software were back then. Did he review them while working for Sensible? Otherwise your point is moot.


    Wrote the manual to Dominions 3, which was published by Shrapnel games who publish a hell of a lot of just the sort of strategy games he writes about. I can find a definite example later if you really want. Harder though as Bruce doesn't tend to do straight reviews much at all.
    Again, writing a manual for a single game = working in PR in a company for 10 years?

    Fuck it, I'm going with crazy AND mentally deficient.


    How stupidly will you stretch in order to back up your ridiculous points? I can't wait to find out!

  12. #852
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Everyone's giving Call Of Duty:BLOPS HARDER good reviews. Did the Eurogamer.fr reviewer review the game whilst working for Activision? Otherwise your point is moot.

    Do you see what Deano is getting at yet?
    Last edited by RobF; 16-11-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post

    And now point out exactly where any of this supports your original assertion. Because tbh if this is anything to go by: -



    I'd say the example is referring to something self contained, where in a clear degree of loss can be established within an institution (X was passed over for promotion Vs Y because Y happened to go to the same school as Z who was adjudicating). You have to be able to demonstrate that there is a loss through that methodology. As reviews are ultimately opinion pieces, it's nigh on impossible to apply that kind of rigour to them, especially when they don't fall out of line with similar opinions from others.
    This interpretation is incorrect. Anywhere and everywhere, being in the position of a conflict is enough. Hence the frequent use of the phrase "real or perceived" in conflict of interest law ('though probably not used in that University regulation, which appears to be a bye-law and not legislation anyway).

    How would you go about proving loss by way of conflict anyway? Imagine i'm a member in a board of a committee to choose the hottest fashion model out of a pool of contestants; the winner is awarded a substantial sum. Model X is my cousin and i am secretly her agent. I vote for Model X. But that doesn't definitively mean that I have caused "loss" to the committee because I chose her. Truth is I could have chosen her anyway. You are questioning a discretionary, subjective judgment. You can't challenge a subjective judgment. The only possible way you could prove "loss" is if somebody has audio-visual evidence of me stating that i specifically chose Model X because I would benefit as a result and I wouldn't have chosen her otherwise. Which is absurd. Conflict of interest laws and regulations were designed to prevent people from acting in a dubious position whilst potentially owing allegiance to multiple parties. It is NOT a fact finding exercise. All it asks for, depending on proximity of connection, is either for the person to abstain from acting in such a capacity or disclose his/her relationship.

    DEANO2099:

    Regarding the "conflict" from eurogamer.fr, I vaguely remember directors of listed companies within the last 12 months being forced to abstain from voting on company resolutions. Furthermore, people who are in cahoots may be freely deemed to be acting in concert by the local financial regulator and required to abstain from the same. What i'm saying is that it's incorrect to say only subsisting relationships can give rise to conflict. The thing is it doesn't even matter what you call it, whether it's conflict of interest or something else. The eurogamer.fr guy worked as PR for a decade and is now reviewing their products. You don't think the least you could ask for is full and frank disclosure?

    In reality, relationships such as these DO give rise to conflict. See, for example, IMG agents acting for tennis players and subsequently ending up in positions of the ATP/ITF (governing body for tennis) and the incredibly deficient drug testing regime, plus cover up. The truth is what happens is you create a sort of "gentlemen's club". It's much easier to enter into a "give and take" relationship.

  14. #854
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious View Post
    Oh right, I guess the lies, the attempts at hiding the truth, the constant Squeenix previews/"not reviews but pretty much reviews" etc can be forgotten about. I see your head is as firmly buried in the sand as it was 10 pages back.
    Please, the only one burying their head in the sand around here is you. That you're basically incapable of even acknowledging that the factual evidence under scrutiny of her supposed 'corruption' doesn't really hold up is a rather tragic personal failing (and god help a black man on trial if you're a juror). Feel free to continue with 'no you' policy though, maybe throw in a bit of SHOUTING with perhaps a dash of 'shill' in there for good measure. But unless 80% miraculously turns into a higher than average review score for DX:HR overnight I think I'll stick my assessment in truth.

    He wrote the manual for one of their games and disclosed this publicly when he first reviewed Sins of a Solar Empire.
    Not in that review he didn't (and certainly not anywhere I've ever seen). Which is the entire point no?

    I guess in your world, being a full time salaried employee in a company for 10 years = a once off project writing a manual?
    Hold up, so now you're suddenly wanting to assess the factual evidence? What changed exactly between Wainwright and Chick, bar your desire to cut 'uncle' Tom a break?
    Last edited by Kadayi; 16-11-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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  15. #855
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    That makes even less sense than your last post



    And now point out exactly where any of this supports your original assertion. Because tbh if this is anything to go by: -



    I'd say the example is referring to something self contained, where in a clear degree of loss can be established within an institution (X was passed over for promotion Vs Y because Y happened to go to the same school as Z who was adjudicating). You have to be able to demonstrate that there is a loss through that methodology. As reviews are ultimately opinion pieces, it's nigh on impossible to apply that kind of rigour to them, especially when they don't fall out of line with similar opinions from others.

    sorry, it has been a long day what are we arguing about?

    my point in a nutshell: Conflict of interest guidelines stress that appearance of a conflict of interest is enough to get you into trouble.

    You don't actually have to do anything wrong.

  16. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious View Post
    Everyone talked about how awesome Sensible Software were back then. Did he review them while working for Sensible? Otherwise your point is moot.
    Did the EG guy review CoD while working for Activision?

    Again, writing a manual for a single game = working in PR in a company for 10 years?
    So the bar is now at being a salaried employee for over X amount of time? So just to check you're fine with the Wainwright/Square Enix thing, as all she did was consultancy for a single game too?

    Sure, some of these examples are more stretched than others, but no-one seems to have a clear line they're willing to draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    Regarding the "conflict" from eurogamer.fr, I vaguely remember directors of listed companies within the last 12 months being forced to abstain from voting on company resolutions. Furthermore, people who are in cahoots may be freely deemed to be acting in concert by the local financial regulator and required to abstain from the same. What i'm saying is that it's incorrect to say only subsisting relationships can give rise to conflict. The thing is it doesn't even matter what you call it, whether it's conflict of interest or something else. The eurogamer.fr guy worked as PR for a decade and is now reviewing their products. You don't think the least you could ask for is full and frank disclosure?
    But it was 12 months since the guy had worked for Activision, so by big finance/director logic he was fine. And there was full and frank disclosure: you Google his name, first result is Linked In with his full employment history. Is that really too much effort? Do you need it there on the page?

  17. #857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious View Post
    Oh right, I guess the lies, the attempts at hiding the truth, the constant Squeenix previews/"not reviews but pretty much reviews" etc can be forgotten about. I see your head is as firmly buried in the sand as it was 10 pages back.
    So it's fine to disclose somewhere else, rather than in every related piece of copy? Like, for example, on your Linked In page?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post

    So the bar is now at being a salaried employee for over X amount of time? So just to check you're fine with the Wainwright/Square Enix thing, as all she did was consultancy for a single game too?

    Sure, some of these examples are more stretched than others, but no-one seems to have a clear line they're willing to draw.
    Lines are drawn. You don't deem everyone possibly connected as in concert (a non-wholly owned subsidiary of a non-wholly owned subsidiary of an associate of an associate...) But at least you know you've crossed the line when it sounds abhorrent.

    But it was 12 months since the guy had worked for Activision, so by big finance/director logic he was fine. And there was full and frank disclosure: you Google his name, first result is Linked In with his full employment history. Is that really too much effort? Do you need it there on the page?
    It really ought to be there on the page. People shouldn't have to google. And what if the guy didn't have a Linked In? What's your beef with where the disclosure is anyway? The more convenient, the better. There should be no objection unless you fundamentally disagree with the disclosure itself.

    In respect of the laws/rules/codes used as a parallel, the fact of the matter is, it's a matter of degree. I didn't throw out financial codes to use as a guide. It's just there to recognize that the concept exists. The actual threshold may very well be different.

    As for the director thing, these guys are required to ABSTAIN. Not disclose - ABSTAIN.

    Perhaps there's been too much finger pointing in this thread. But accusations aren't constructive unless there is definitive proof, which there really never will be without audio-visual evidence, as i said before. So the constructive thing to do is to analyze/discuss the shortcomings of the system and advocate reform as a way forward.

    Of course some people enjoy being a contrarian and arguing (not you). Maybe it makes them feel smarter or something.

  19. #859
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    sorry, it has been a long day what are we arguing about?

    my point in a nutshell: Conflict of interest guidelines stress that appearance of a conflict of interest is enough to get you into trouble.

    You don't actually have to do anything wrong.
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    Well i have seen a twit by Lauren referencing Squeenix as "mothership" after receiving some cool shit pics of some FF game. Haha, then we get to see so much apologies and rationalization for these shills,oh well..."but wahh she didn't give 5/5 in her poorly written review she is not a good shill wah".But hey there is nothing wrong with these entitled to doritos game journos eh, they are pretty critical of the games they review no?

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