View Poll Results: Should Scotland go it alone?

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  • Yes

    18 43.90%
  • No

    23 56.10%
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  1. #1
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    Scottish Independence

    What is your views on the prospect of an Scottish referendum on independence in 2014?

    Should Scotland go it alone? Should Scotland stay in the Union?

    I'm a Scotsman and I want nothing but independence. Why not? Scotland should make its own decisions, and our problems should be our own problems to deal with. Independence won't damage our relations with England and the rest of the Union, I believe our relations would improve as friendly neighbours instead of four tenants that can't agree on anything or get along most of the time. Also I am a proud Scotsman and I truly believe we can be successful alone, we have an magnificent country. We would face difficulties, but we can solve them ourselves. An independent Scotland would focus more on domestic issues, which needs more serious attention.

    But will the vote go the nationalists way? Probably not, but one is allowed to hope a little, right?

    Scottish nationalism doesn't equal to hatred towards the English. Most Scots either has friendly or at least neutral feelings towards the English.

    Just to clear up why I am not in Scotland if I love my country so much. I'm stuck abroad because of Theresa May, she and her Conservative cronies won't allow me to come home because my wife is Chinese and I'm not rich. Hopefully an independent Scotland would allow me to return with my wife, so I can also take care of my ailing mother and live a better quality life than we are now. But apparently, we are not good enough, and Albanian thieves are allowed to reside in our place.
    Last edited by Adam; 17-10-2012 at 12:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Lesser Hivemind Node Harlander's Avatar
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    Can we get a "sure, if a majority of them want to" option in that poll?

  3. #3
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    Small countries are crap and get bullied by Germany. In principle I'm in favour of decentralization and regional autonomy, but sometimes you need to gang up to have more influence. I wouldn't want to be in a small EU country these days.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  4. #4
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    I'd prefer Scotland not to join the EU, and rather lean towards an free market economy using a currency that is levelled with Sterling. I am not an expert on economics though. I want all decisions made in Scotland, not London or Brussels.

    And regarding the poll, I want to keep it simple as the referendum will also be just as simple, a yes or no.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlander View Post
    Can we get a "sure, if a majority of them want to" option in that poll?
    The point of the referendum is to find out if that is the case!

    The real missing third option is of course "Devolution Plus" or "Devo' Max" or whatever they want to call it this week. This option gives greater fiscal authority to Scotland to pursue it's own policies. We already have different health, education and judicial systems, and it makes sense that we should be able to change taxes to fund these, as due to Scotland's naturally more left leaning (more akin to a Scandinavian country) ways many of our policies are rather expensive to implement. The crucial point with this (before someone English perhaps justifiably asks why they should be funding greater state support in Scotland) is that we'd be supplementing the money we receive from the British coffers by taxing our own people. The appeal of "Devo plus" to me is that I'm proud of being both Scottish and British. I think there are advantages, particularly on the world stage, to us being together and I feel that despite some political differences we are very similar culturally.

    There is certainly merit in the suggestions of Lib Dem Menzies Campbell (he was against the coalition so I don't harbour as much ill feeling towards him as the rest of that lot!) that Britain should take up a more federal structure, and I guess that ties in with the devo max argument. Plus it would solve once and for all the "West Lothian" question, which did result in some unpopular policies being pushed through in England (hello tuition fees!). However things start getting more complex there and it becomes a question for the whole of the country; after all Wales and even northern England have different political outlooks to Tory dominated southern England. Plus it would bring the whole issue of Northern Ireland into sharp focus again and that's perhaps a can of worms that it's best not to open.

    What is the case is that the lack of a third option has changed my outlook from "I'll never vote for independence" to "I'll have to seriously consider what both campaigns have to say." It's clear enough what a "yes" vote will mean but what of the "no" vote? Will it just maintain the status quo or will more autonomy for Scotland be examined and have the potential to be implemented? Both Labour and the Lib Dems have to make their views on this absolutely crystal clear. Somewhat in paradox to a lot of other people, national pride pulls me towards keeping the Union, but I don't think I could in good conscience vote "no" if I feel it is going to strangle the chance for Scotland to pursue more progressive, fairer policies.

    While it would make me feel guilty abandoning England to years of the Tories, well, doing what they do now; I wouldn't want to see my own country, who it must be stressed only voted in one single Conservative MP in the last general election, dragged down with them when it has a chance to grasp the opportunity to actually pursue policies that it is more politically aligned with. I actually think (although disagreeing with them on several issues like nuclear power and minimum alcohol pricing and thinking that their handling of the Lockerbie bomber case was somewhat embarrasing) that the SNP haven't done too shabby a job, but despite that I never voted for them because deep down I didn't want to break up the union and that is their main reason for existence.

    I realise I did get a bit rambling there:

    tldr:

    Why no third option?
    Would probably rather stay in the Union.
    Find it hard to pass up the opportunity to ditch the Tories.
    Still got two years to make up my mind!

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Some links that are better at explaining things that I should have included:

    Leslie Riddoch on Devo Max (I'm largely in agreement with this article) - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...max-referendum

    Report on Menzies Campbell's commission's plans on moving to a Federal system (I hope the Lib Dems have the balls to support this, for me it's the ideal solution but as is always the case with the Lib Dems, they talk nice but they'll probably never be in the position to push it through or if they are they wont see it through) - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oc...-taxes-lib-dem

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    I visited Aberdeen as a tourist a decade ago for one month stay, some time around 1998/1997 as I recalled. That was a very peaceful city. Not a very big city, and this is probably the reason everything is very well organized. How could I forget the extremely convenient in-town transportation? All you need is ability to read / speak / listen (and in a few occasion write) simple English. You could start from the Union Street take a bus to a location you want - all First Aberdeen bus routes had stops in the street. I pay for three weeks bus pass and did not have to pay any further fee per trip. The First staff members were even so kind to offer us free bus map (I found out that bus map was actually not supposed to be free, it officially cost half a British pound and they dont always offer free map). The map is so clearly illustrating all the information a tourist need to be informed. I never witness such great transportation system in my own country - as least neither in my home town nor Shanghai, the city I am working in.

    And referendum on independence, that's something very interesting. Is Britain a federation and every member state can legally choose to stay in the union or not? I read that the USSR before collapse also had such a system (although it was not truthfully implemented, of course. But it was written in the constitution, that's a fact).

    And if Scotland gains independence, will it be a constitutional monarchy or republic?

    Imperial America, on the other hand, legally DOES NOT permit its member state to exit the union.
    Last edited by squirrel; 17-10-2012 at 01:05 PM.

  8. #8
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    That is a very good response, thanks.

    The thing I'm worried about is in the likely event of an no vote, then how long will it take until the third question is asked? Politics moves at a snails pace.

    Regarding our weaker stance in the world if we were separated, well, if having a strong stance in the world means more excursions in the Middle East and babysitting the world, then in my opinion I would say no thank you. As I've said, I believe an independent Scotland would focus more on domestic issues, and that is a good thing for us. The Scots are strong and resilient people, we can take care of ourselves.

    I am also proud to be both Scottish and British in terms of defending our island (and smaller islands) against aggressors, and on cultural reasons, but the politics of this country is in a dire mess. As you've said, Scotland elected only one Conservative MP, but we are ruled by them. Is that a true democracy? Then there is the monarchy, which has no place in modern times. The monarchs should be scrapped. Scotland should be a republic.

    You know what? Being independent doesn't cut all ties with the remainder of the United Kingdom. We will still defend our island together and we will still share our culture with one another. We still have our history together. The only difference is that Edinburgh rules Scotland and London rules England (and the remainder of the Union).
    Last edited by Adam; 17-10-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    The thing I'm worried about is in the likely event of an no vote, then how long will it take until the third question is asked? Politics moves at a snails pace.
    I'm definitely worried about this too. Much would depend on how close the vote ends up but regardless of result a "no" vote will most likely lead into a vicious and ugly cycle of "spin" from the SNP and the Conservatives; with the former claiming the result as a sign of the desire for greater autonomy and the latter as a sign that the people said no let's carry on as we are. The Lib Dems would almost certainly back up the SNP if the result was close but if it's not they'll probably have little to say. I don't have a fucking clue what Scottish Labour would do they've seemed rather rudderless for the past few years. But as you say, after the initial decelerations are made things will get bogged down and move frustratingly slowly.

    Also I completely agree that being independent means we wont cut ties. Much as I enjoy winding up the English (and throwing some sheep shagger jibes at the Welsh and well, whatever it is that the Northern Irish are known for!), I'm just rather oddly attached to being British, I'm not entirely sure it's rational but there you go!

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    And referendum on independence, that's something very interesting. Is Britain a federation and every member state can legally choose to stay in the union or not? I read that the USSR before collapse also had such a system (although it was not truthfully implemented, of course. But it was written in the constitution, that's a fact).

    And if Scotland gains independence, will it be a constitutional monarchy or republic?
    The means for us to leave would have to be passed in an act of parliament, as it stands now we can't (indeed an act of parliament had to be amended for us to be allowed to hold a referendum). However a yes vote in the referendum would mean that this act would be passed (or the Government would lose all credibility).

    As for monarchy, I believe Salmond has said he would keep it. I don't know his personal views on the issue but I'd imagine that saying he'd ditch the monarchy may lose him a lot of support. Personally I'd be quite happy to cut ties with them but it's not a factor in my considerations on the vote.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Nationalism is a disease that obscures commonality. look at Israel & Palestine for a prime example of peoples collective failure to realise they are both in fact human beings at the end of the day and value each other as such. Any form of factionalism and division is the preserve of the social luddite.
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  12. #12
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    Perhaps the North should go in with the Scots, that way we'd definitely get all the oil. And we don't exactly like Southerners either.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    A beautiful song I heard in several occasions during that stay in Aberdeen, very peaceful (I cant understand the lyrics though, I dont speak Celtic, but this is the translation I found)


  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    @ Kad's

    Desiring a different style of government, with different values, does not someone who hates their neighbours make.

    Of course, this isn't everyone's motivation and there is a nasty divisive element within those supporting independence, but I truly believe they are in the minority and in a democratic society will be out voiced by those who aren't complete fucking shits.

    This isn't Israel Palestine here, not by a long shot.

    I do absolutely think that anything that encourages countries to work together for common goals, the UK the EU, whatever is a good thing. However to expect a massive large group of people to actually run things the same way when they are so many valid options (for surely you can't allow several forms of government to exist without there being divisions) would be somewhat ludicrous.

    We can organise ourselves in a different manner and still all get along, the two are far from mutually exclusive.

    @ Squirrel

    Capercaillie are great (I don't know Gaelic either so don't understand a word), the lead singer comes from a village near where I grew up so I've seen them a couple of times.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
    Desiring a different style of government, with different values, does not someone who hates their neighbours make.

    Of course, this isn't everyone's motivation and there is a nasty divisive element within those supporting independence, but I truly believe they are in the minority and in a democratic society will be out voiced by those who aren't complete fucking shits.
    Leads to the same shit eventually dude. Once you start viewing people as 'the other' and promote tribalism it becomes real easy to disregard them, as has been proven innumerable times throughout history with bloody consequence. When a guy talks about being 'proud' based on the pure arbitariness of where he was born geographically does that not speak of a certain contempt for others at the same time?
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  16. #16
    Vector Jams O'Donnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Nationalism is a disease that obscures commonality. ... Any form of factionalism and division is the preserve of the social luddite.
    Meanwhile, the coalition government seems to be doing everything it can to get the UK out of the EU, while the SNP is pro-EU.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    When a guy talks about being 'proud' based on the pure arbitariness of where he was born geographically does that not speak of a certain contempt for others at the same time?
    One does not necessarily follow from the other. I'm proud of my nationality, but I also look at other cultures and think "Gee, it would have been nice to grow up there."
    Last edited by Jams O'Donnell; 17-10-2012 at 02:18 PM.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Perhaps the North should go in with the Scots, that way we'd definitely get all the oil. And we don't exactly like Southerners either.
    Was having this conversation with a mate the other day in the pub. Basically if voting patterns in the UK (apart from Scotland) remained the same, Scottish independence would pretty much doom the rest of us to a perma-conserva government.

    In this case, defection to the kingdom of Scotlandia would be the only option (or just buggering off to somewhere abroad).
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  18. #18
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    Where is your point going? Nationalist Scots in the future will be shouting "Heil Salmond" and will be slaughtering the English because they are different? Not everything leads to the same shit.

    There is nothing wrong with being proud of your homeland, culture and your country. It is home and one should rightfully defend it. Home is a large part of every individual.

    In fact, Scots are pretty much welcomed wherever they go in the world.

    It is the mindset of people that separates us.
    Last edited by Adam; 17-10-2012 at 02:25 PM.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    @ Kad

    I'll admit to some contempt. To say otherwise I'd be deluding myself. I think my contempt for the Conservative party is fairly clear from my posts so far in this topic. By extension I've also a degree of contempt for those who voted for them. I'm sure they've got contempt for me too. Doesn't mean we couldn't have a nice pint or feel empathy for each other when something goes wrong in our lives or y'know, just get along.

    There are degrees of contempt, some are unhealthy and some, I'd argue are fairly harmless in the grand scheme of things. Just as I'm not going to ostracise people based on football team supported or a liking of mushrooms (seriously they are horrible!) I'm not going to do so based on nationality or political outlook.

    Also see Jams' point above.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    We will still defend our island together and we will still share our culture with one another. We still have our history together. The only difference is that Edinburgh rules Scotland and London rules England (and the remainder of the Union).
    And in the words of George Carlin: "Where are you gonna find a fairer fuckin' deal than that?"

    I think it's great to see smaller communities of people (such as Scotland, but you see the same thing in parts of Spain, Belgium, Italy and Germany - and also Texas a few years ago) think, discuss and talk about - and perhaps eventually vote on - the forms of government that they consider best for them in this time.
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