View Poll Results: Should Scotland go it alone?

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  • Yes

    18 43.90%
  • No

    23 56.10%
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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus duff's Avatar
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    I'm English, and I'm proud to be English and proud to be British. I don't want Scotland to leave the UK. I think we are stronger together, both economically and culturally. It seems a little odd to me that the SNP want to leave the UK but then eventually join the Euro and have closer integration with the EU, when it's been proven time and time again that fiscal integration without political and social union is destined to fail. Ironically, that is what we have in the UK and we should not throw it away lightly.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I support all peoples in their drive for independence. However, in the case of the Scots there's bias present in my vote for Yes. Their secession would resolve the West Lothian Question. I want independence for the English more than I do for most, because it's independence for myself.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Key issue is this, is Scotland a country, if not can (say) Manchester have an independence referendum? what about the Isle of Mann.

    If Scotland is a country then it should be made independent involuntarily(additionally the falklands) because occupying other nations is illegal after WW2 (geneva?), if its not a country then its simply a matter of whether the British government thinks the Britain is better off without Scotland, because that's when a nation gets independence, when the people that own it don't want it.
    The Scots probably qualify as a "peoples", hence they have an internationally-agreed right to self-determination. The people of Manchester are not a peoples, and so they wouldn't have much of a case. One of the issues with the Falklands is that it isn't clear whether the islanders are a peoples or not. The UK would say they are and Argentina would say they aren't, but neither side wants to ask the question to the UN because they might lose.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    The Scots probably qualify as a "peoples", hence they have an internationally-agreed right to self-determination. The people of Manchester are not a peoples, and so they wouldn't have much of a case. One of the issues with the Falklands is that it isn't clear whether the islanders are a peoples or not. The UK would say they are and Argentina would say they aren't, but neither side wants to ask the question to the UN because they might lose.
    DIdn't they do a referendum about the whole thing?

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    a "peoples"
    ...Yeah, like I said, arbitrary.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    DIdn't they do a referendum about the whole thing?
    Yes, but if they are not defined by the UN as a peoples their say is legally worthless.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Yes, but if they are not defined by the UN as a peoples their say is legally worthless.
    What a strange thought that is, you could argue that because the UN and so the world don't think of them as peoples you could massacre them without being thought of as a criminal. That seems silly.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    What a strange thought that is, you could argue that because the UN and so the world don't think of them as peoples you could massacre them without being thought of as a criminal. That seems silly.
    Nah, you're not allowed to massacre anyone, they still have most of their human rights, just not the right to decide what country they're in.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    ... they still have most of their human rights, just not the right to decide what country they're in.
    That will be decided between the people of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, surely. Besides, is Ban Ki-moon going to send in the Blue Berets to prevent Scotland from becoming an independent nation should the vote swing that way? I doubt it.
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  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Nah, you're not allowed to massacre anyone, they still have most of their human rights, just not the right to decide what country they're in.
    Kinda reminds me of Andrew Jackson.

    "Sure, you have the right to sovereignty. Just not the right to recognition. Now step aside for the 1st Cavalry Division."
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  11. #51
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    Scotland can't survive as an independent nation? I have never fully understood this viewpoint. What makes us so different from the rest of the world? I find it a little upsetting that we are seen as if we are on a life-support machine which cannot be disconnected. This argument is plain scaremongering from Unionists.

    The best argument for independence is that Scotland should decide its own future entirely with no interference from London. That way we can concentrate on our own local issues and ideas, and after independence I feel that we will have closer dialogue from our politicians and we will see faster results.

    Ever since Scotland gained its own Parliament, I've seen my local area (back in Glasgow) develop quicker in that decade from 1999 to 2009 than before that time. It changed from a shit hole that hadn't changed much for decades to a more comfortable area to live. Many communities benefited. That was due to closer dialogue with our MSPs. With full independence I believe this dialogue will get closer, and we will gain more channels to discuss problems. That is why I want independence. That is why the Union doesn't function properly because the system is too damn complicated.

    It is time for the current Union to be broken, and to be replaced with a union of friendship and cooperation as neighbouring countries.
    Last edited by Adam; 19-10-2012 at 08:27 AM.

  12. #52
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    You can go if you take The North with you please. It'd be nice to have a government that actually fights for your corner rather than these ****s

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    That is why the Union doesn't function properly because the system is too damn complicated.


    Then maybe instead of throwing the baby out of the bath water we should work together to make it less complex and good for everyone. this is why I don't like it because though you say you will have a dialogue with the rest of the UK from the tone you don't give a crap about us and just want to go it alone despite our "interference" if so I agree with kadyi that can only lead to tension.

  14. #54
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    The political system will never change. Still having a monarchy itself shows how little chances we have of any real changes. The monarchs should had been scrapped decades ago.

    This independence referendum is the only way my country can get away from that system and to create our own system, preferably based on a republic. Whatever flaws we have in our own system can be dealt by ourselves. For me, Scotland comes first, and it always will as it is my homeland.

    You see? The Union today is full of division. Look how many times the North of England has been slated by Southerners in this thread alone. That argument is now invalid. Yes, we can show our unity every four years at the Olympics, but the reality is that most of the time we are bickering at each other over everything from crumbs to oil, from churches to chapels and from unfairness to discrimination. So please, don't talk about division when division within the Union has existed for hundreds of years, and is to blame for thousands of deaths during that time. The Union and the Crown has done more harm than good.
    Last edited by Adam; 19-10-2012 at 12:57 PM.

  15. #55
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    The way I see it is that if Scotland does not get independance, it means that there is no more consequence for fucking up the government. everything goes, so to say.

    I guess austria could be divided into provinces again, lord knows Id sure as hell throw out corinthia (its the most nationalist province the country has), but generally, current day austria is made up of similar cultured people, unlike the UK (or germany) which incorporate several. (for germany, its Bavaria)

    Now Belgium, thats a different matter. Their quarrel isnt about "being forced under a single rule", but a more.. nationalist hatred for each other. Im talking about the flemish and the wallon side, of course. There is no real pro or con to splitting, it would serve no purpose at all to split up a country that small into two pieces.

    there, thats the only two countries I ever lived in.

    Though to clarify my point about consequence: if you fuck up, you should be held accountable, or "something might happen". Not as in a threat, but simply a cause and effect kind of deal. You fuck up the country, part of the country might pack up and leave, so to say. And not be held together by some arbitrary, artificial external commission.
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  16. #56
    Of course independence will damage your relationship with England! Seriously!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I don't think you can hold the Lib Dems accountable for the fact that 68% of the voting public were apparently too thick to understand how/or were politically unwilling to countenance the idea of the alternative vote.
    Of course it could also be that the alternative vote system would have been just as flawed as the current one. Leading to equally poor representation of people, just different ones.

    Plus, I hold the Lib Dems accountable of everything, they are holding this government and coalition together after all, so all of the actions of the current government are directly because of their actions.

  18. #58
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    One question I've always had on the affair - where does the line of self-determination end? Let's say Scotland votes (and I cannot see it being anything but narrowly if at all) for independence come the referendum. Is that automatically binding for the whole of Scotland? If, say, Orkney and Shetland vote 3:1 for keeping the union, do they get to remain in? Is Scotland whole and indivisible? If so, is the UK not whole and indivisible? What makes the difference? I've never had a good answer to that. It's the same question that caused some trouble here in Canada - the Nord du Quebec is would rather (by a huge margin) stay in Canada than join some hypothetical independent Quebec. Naturally the pequists refused to acknowledge as much.

    I guess I just don't see the point in adding even more barriers between people in this day and age.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    lord knows Id sure as hell throw out corinthia (its the most nationalist province the country has)
    Sometimes I wonder why we worked so hard to save the union, only to have the South fuck up every election after the war for a century and a half.
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  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The political system will never change.


    And thats your problem saying that and going oh well it will never change lets just leave ship and have a party in our own land fuck the southerners in this. If all those people that said fuck off and actually said lets work together we might bring something, maybe we could convince the lib dems to say that actually they could go out and we could have another election and we could have some difference maybe we could have a revolution i don't know but I like standing together with people I don't like division.

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