View Poll Results: Should Scotland go it alone?

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  • Yes

    18 43.90%
  • No

    23 56.10%
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  1. #21
    Lesser Hivemind Node Labbes's Avatar
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    I don't really have an opinion on this, but how exactly is this planned? I'm guessing an independent Scotland would still use Pound Sterling, but would it also be part of the UK? Would it get its own seat in the EU and other international institutions? There probably aren't any fixed plans for this, but surely there's a "common" opinion among politicians and the populace about these things.
    Also, if Scotland would use Pound Sterling, but make its own fiscal policies, wouldn't that be a bad idea considering All Politicians now agree that part of the problem with Euro was/is that countries with the same currency don't have an aligned fiscal policy?

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I think its trying to push back the tide, come on we are slowly going towards a future where evrything has to be one nation I feel the EU has problems yeah and they ave to sort out there shit but its the future there is no way to go it alone in this interconnected world. I feel UKIP and the conservatives are wrong as well and i want to be part of the EU.

    I also have problems with tribalism i don't consider myself english i consider myself British i consider myself the world, its really depressing seeing people just say this chunk of land is ours, no matter if its civil that basically leads to bad tidings really, maybe for a few years scotland and the rest of the uk might have better connections but soon it will erode and probably scotland will be chummy with the norweigians and forget about south of the border.

    I don't know you all people asking for independence seem nice and well I like to think you have the best intentions but somehow I still think its the wrong thing to do.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wolfenswan's Avatar
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    England's really loosing grasp on the last colonies it seems.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jams O'Donnell View Post
    Meanwhile, the coalition government seems to be doing everything it can to get the UK out of the EU, while the SNP is pro-EU.
    Worrying about the coalition is short term thinking Vs long term. Given the way things have gone I be amazed if the UK public given the conservatives another 5 years in office. Cameron & Osborne are a comedy double act of why public school boys are the worst people to run anything because they lack the humility to acknowledge that they might actually be wrong.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 17-10-2012 at 04:28 PM.

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Worrying about the coalition is short term thinking Vs long term. Given the way things have gone I be amazed if the UK public given the conservatives another 5 years in office. Cameron & Osborne a comedy double act of why public school boys are the worst people to run anything because they lack the humility to acknowledge that they might actuaslly be wrong.
    I wouldn't be amazed. They've got decent majorities in the south, they're doing the usual thing (Labour did it too, it's standard) of changing boundaries in their favour, Miliband is a fairly uninspiring leader for Labour. The next general election is going to be a close run thing once again and I fear they may end up edging it. It may well depend on whether Lib Dem voters looking to punish them (which will happen, we saw it in the Scottish elections) vote for Labour or choose to abstain.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Autonomy isn't Balkanism. I don't expect to see Celtic warriors burning Liverpool to the ground.

    Well, unless there's a football match on.
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  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Yup, those Rangers fans did a brilliant job of trashing Manchester . . .

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Where is your point going? Nationalist Scots in the future will be shouting "Heil Salmond" and will be slaughtering the English because they are different? Not everything leads to the same shit.
    Show me an example of historical division that has been benefitial.

    It is the mindset of people that separates us.
    The world is not a vaccuum. As soon as you create an identification you generate barriers.

    I'll admit to some contempt. To say otherwise I'd be deluding myself. I think my contempt for the Conservative party is fairly clear from my posts so far in this topic. By extension I've also a degree of contempt for those who voted for them. I'm sure they've got contempt for me too.
    What has your contempt for the conservative party got to do with anything tbh? The vast majority of the UK didn't vote them in.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ian's Avatar
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    Despite living in Scotland I don't really consider it to be any of my business one way or the other. I'll be interested to find out to what extent such a change would effect me of course. I suppose I'm pro-Union when it really boils down to it, though as I get older that's in part because I find myself increasingly disgusted by the attitude of a good number of self-professed patriots of all nationalities.

    As for the political state it would leave England/the UK in I can't summon the will to care. Be it Labour or Conservative there probably won't be anybody worth voting for who's actually going to get anywhere in my lifetime. Which is a fairly grim thought, but there it is. Just a succession of bastards taking it in turns to ruin the country. We're just picking our poison.

    Oh, and for what it's worth letting 16 - and 17-year olds vote in the referendum is a bit shit.
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  10. #30
    I didn't realise they were holding the referendum on the RPS forum. Brave new world.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    What has your contempt for the conservative party got to do with anything tbh? The vast majority of the UK didn't vote them in.
    I think your final sentence sums it up. The vast majority of people didn't vote them in and yet here we are and here they are. OK so the solution to this is electoral reform, but that's one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem in the last election. I think you can see how spectacularly well that turned out. I could just not vote but I'm pretty sure that never helped anything.

    Perhaps trying to get out of the system that allowed this to happen on a wave of nationalism is the wrong way to go about it and incredibly selfish to boot. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think it is. It smacks too much of desperation and may well cause more harm than good. But it is a way and that's why I'm considering it (with a "devo max" I wouldn't have, I really feel that the unionists have shot themselves in the foot in that regard and I really wish they hadn't). It's entirely likely that after consideration I'll come to the conclusion that in the long term independence for Scotland will ultimately make things worse.
    Last edited by Lambchops; 17-10-2012 at 05:31 PM.

  12. #32
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    The only irony in the situation, I find, is that the UK was formed by a scottish person/idea. So doesnt that make the UK inherently scottish?

    Hilarity ensues.

    Also, if a country is doing badly enough because of a certain rule, it should be possible to get rid of the rule.
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 17-10-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Also, if a country is doing badly enough because of a certain rule, it should be possible to get rid of the rule.
    NYC tried to secede three times. Mostly it was because NYers don't like subsidizing the rest of the nation, but the rest was because they didn't like how long it takes to get the rest of the country around to their way of thinking. The smaller the electoral district, the more responsive the governmental apparatus is to it, so just saying "screw you" to the rest of the nation looks a lot more appealing compared to dawdling for twenty years or more for the bumpkins in the boonies to see reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Show me an example of historical division that has been benefitial. [sic]
    Are we talking popular secession or are we talking post-colonial political divisions created by former imperialists and the ethnic/religious wars that manifest because of such?
    Last edited by Nalano; 17-10-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Key issue is this, is Scotland a country, if not can (say) Manchester have an independence referendum? what about the Isle of Mann.

    If Scotland is a country then it should be made independent involuntarily(additionally the falklands) because occupying other nations is illegal after WW2 (geneva?), if its not a country then its simply a matter of whether the British government thinks the Britain is better off without Scotland, because that's when a nation gets independence, when the people that own it don't want it.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
    OK so the solution to this is electoral reform, but that's one of the reasons I voted Lib Dem in the last election. I think you can see how spectacularly well that turned out. I could just not vote but I'm pretty sure that never helped anything.
    I don't think you can hold the Lib Dems accountable for the fact that 68% of the voting public were apparently too thick to understand how/or were politically unwilling to countenance the idea of the alternative vote. Plain truth of the matter is the 'Yes' campaign weren't aggressive enough in getting their message across and the 'No' campaign pushed a strong line in scaremongering and BS. Frankly after Cameron (who ironically was elected conservative party leader through the alternative vote system) went all in on how the proposed system was 'Unbritish' the Lib Dems should of pulled the rug on the coalition on the basis of lack of confidence in the conservative party leadership and let him and Osborne flounder.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    I'm British (born/lived in Scotland, parents from England, Irish family name, Manx history on the other side... and, err... used to have a Holiday Home in Wales?), and I say NO, and will vote NO when we eventually get the chance. I think we've worked pretty damn well as a United Kingdom, and that there's too much to be lost with too little to be gained from complete Independence.

    I also just don't trust the SNP and Alex Salmond in particular, and I think we're going to see some of their Duplicity in the coming months (for example, the SNP has ALWAYS been vehemently opposed to membership of NATO, but seem willing to change that stance without much consideration, because they kind of have to).
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  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I don't think you can hold the Lib Dems accountable for the fact that 68% of the voting public were apparently too thick to understand how/or were politically unwilling to countenance the idea of the alternative vote. Plain truth of the matter is the 'Yes' campaign weren't aggressive enough in getting their message across


    I'm sorry but even the lib dems thought the AV system was a sham and not what they truly wanted, they should have pused hard for something different not a painting on the plate we already have.

    The other thing I have a problem with is that i don't think Scotland could support itself on its own financially, they all say about oil but that is slowly going to go and there policies at the moment are quite expensive.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I'm sorry but even the lib dems thought the AV system was a sham and not what they truly wanted, they should have pushed hard for something different not a painting on the plate we already have.
    Given a choice between first past the post or AV, I'd rather AV because at least under AV the elected official technically has the backing of the majority of the electorate through 2nd and 3rd preferences where as the current system invariably results in the election of a candidate based on a minority. Neither labour or the conservatives were ever going to commit/offer full PR because it would invariably weaken them and move us towards true coalition political system. AV would at least of been a step in the right direction. As it is were unlikely to see any more attempts at electoral reform for probably another ten years now....

  19. #39
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    If I was living in Scotland and had grown up there (Which was actually a possibility as my Mum's family are from Glasgow and there was talk of moving back up there when I was a wee one) I would probably vote no. Though with a mind to push for a federalised system down the line. The crux of the issue, really, is that as long as the day to day running of things can be done at a local level they should be. Doing so means that in theory the representation people receive in their governance is better. The problem is the smaller the country the more easily you can get run rough-shod over by the larger nations in terms of international treaties, and more importantly, trade. China isn't going to see brave a brave a plucky little nation with something to prove, they're going to see a small nation to be either ignored or else used as a minor league source for injecting foreign capital into their businesses.

    Then again that's the same reason why I'd dearly love someone to burn the EU to the ground and start from the ground up as a sane, democratic and cohesive political union to ensure mutual defence and collective bargaining on the world stage. As it is the EU has gotten bogged down in bureaucracy and minutia.

    However, as I'm not living in Scotland I'll simply abstain and say that if the Scots decide to leave I'll wish them good luck and make sure I nab dual citizenship just in case. Because frankly if they do leave England is going to go straight to the bloody dogs because we'll be in for a perpetual Tory nightmare and chances are those neo-liberal freak-bags will have burnt the country down for the insurance money within another decade.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Key issue is this, is Scotland a country, if not can (say) Manchester have an independence referendum? what about the Isle of Mann.
    Isle of Man isn't part of the UK anyway, but I see your point. Obviously the difference is that relatively recently Scotland has been it's own independent nation.
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