View Poll Results: Should Scotland go it alone?

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  • Yes

    18 43.90%
  • No

    23 56.10%
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  1. #61
    Activated Node mpk's Avatar
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    I'm all for independance, but not with that lunatic Salmond in charge, and not in the middle of a global recession.

  2. #62
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    The Union and the Crown has done more harm than good.
    Not sure that's entirely true.

    There are a lot of great things that have happened during the Union (to go along with the shitty things); perhaps most obvious being the introduction of the NHS. That the Tories want to fuck it up doesn't change the fact that there have been many positive developments in the years that the UK has been together.

    @ Xercies

    Then maybe instead of throwing the baby out of the bath water we should work together to make it less complex and good for everyone.
    This is a viewpoint I can get behind, but whether it's going to happen or not something different entirely. Certain the referendum is (even if defeated) only going to deliver Scotland more leeway to be, well, different from England. Let's face it when we (arguably, for the uni top up fees argument is complex, but it stands as an example) got a chance to intervene and prevent an unpopular policy going through our craven politicians cared more about their careers and toed the party line and put through the top up fees policy (again I concede that it's a more complicated issue and for many politicians this would not be the case - plus politicians not supporting majority of public opinion isn't always a bad thing - see the abolition of the death penalty).

    Err, I'm sure I had a point but I think it's got lost. Basically I'm more pessimistic, not about striving together for something better but about politicians actually implementing it. Increasingly though I don't think saying "ah fuck, this" and going alone is the right thing to do.

  3. #63
    Most of the people I talk to (I live in Edinburgh) like the SNP and the way it runs the devolved government, but aren't as sure about independence. I don't think it'll happen in 2014, but in a decade or two I think it most likely will.
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  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Scotland as independent country...

    not going into much details but I would like to ask few questions:

    What about electricity, water, waste removal. I highly doubt Scotland supports itself fully. It might with proper rewiring, replumbing, even if it has currently the capacity to support whole country (does it?)
    what about currency. Will people trust the new currency? Or will they use Euro instead? I know I would not trust it and would convert all my cash savings to USD or EUR. Many people would do the same. The currency would be unstable. Or will you keep using sterling? Being still depended on UK.
    Banks? They are tied to UK banking system. How would one propose making them part of Scottish system?
    NATO? Will Scotland become automatically part of the pact? What happens to soldiers from Scotland who serve now for UK. Will they become Scottish soldiers automatically?
    What happens to Scottish people living in other parts of the world? Can they chose whether they want to remain being UK citizens or will they be forced to become Scottish? Will David Tennant become a foreigner in England?
    What about towns in England where majority is scottish, what about towns in Scotland where majority of people are English?
    Won't Wales demand an independence too?
    Wouldn't that restart Norther Ireland conflict?

    and bazillions of other issues...


    If Scotland becomes independent "quickly" (lets say in five years) the country will face massive problems. Expect poverty, violence, migration, drop in standards of living.

    Possible if it is gradual process.... lets say over fifty years.


    For me... I don't like it. Im not Scottish nor British so its not really my place to say it, but I am European and I would like to see a united Europe. As one country not dozens of little ones.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    Scotland as independent country...

    not going into much details but I would like to ask few questions:

    What about electricity, water, waste removal. I highly doubt Scotland supports itself fully. It might with proper rewiring, replumbing, even if it has currently the capacity to support whole country (does it?)
    what about currency. Will people trust the new currency? Or will they use Euro instead? I know I would not trust it and would convert all my cash savings to USD or EUR. Many people would do the same. The currency would be unstable. Or will you keep using sterling? Being still depended on UK.
    Banks? They are tied to UK banking system. How would one propose making them part of Scottish system?
    NATO? Will Scotland become automatically part of the pact? What happens to soldiers from Scotland who serve now for UK. Will they become Scottish soldiers automatically?
    What happens to Scottish people living in other parts of the world? Can they chose whether they want to remain being UK citizens or will they be forced to become Scottish? Will David Tennant become a foreigner in England?
    What about towns in England where majority is scottish, what about towns in Scotland where majority of people are English?
    Won't Wales demand an independence too?
    Wouldn't that restart Norther Ireland conflict?

    and bazillions of other issues...


    If Scotland becomes independent "quickly" (lets say in five years) the country will face massive problems. Expect poverty, violence, migration, drop in standards of living.

    Possible if it is gradual process.... lets say over fifty years.


    For me... I don't like it. Im not Scottish nor British so its not really my place to say it, but I am European and I would like to see a united Europe. As one country not dozens of little ones.
    You're right. Anybody who's running a trade deficit should immediately relinquish their independence, as they are clearly incapable of supporting themselves.

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  6. #66
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    My only real stake in the debate is Scotland's voting power, which is generally arrayed against the bloody Conservatives (and Christ do we need more people against them). On that basis I say 'no'.

    I mean, sure, if the Scots want to govern themselves to a greater extent (which let's face it, given opinion poll results, is Salmond's real agenda), fair enough. The various nations of the UK are rather different from one another, a degree of individual governance only makes sense. But independence? Unity benefits everyone, it makes for a stronger nation in every regard (particularly at the moment, economically springs to mind). Also, the nations have been unified for really quite a long time now, the people, the systems, there is a lot of integration between the countries, which makes separation seem like lunacy.

    @Lukasz: In answer to a few of your points:
    Wales and N. Ireland aren't quite so Scottish in that regard (which is why I always think "bloody Scots again" whenever this issue pops up - no offence Scots, I only hate you insofar as Southerners are supposed to hate anything north of a certain point). It'd probably bring about a wave of violence from the stupider parts of N. Ireland, but that's it.

    Banking-wise Scotland does have its own banking system, that is fairly seperate between England and Scotland. As to how well an independent Scotland would stand alone on the world financial stage in times such as these... Well, I'm a bit dubious there, Salmond is an idiot if he really wants to go it alone at this point in time, particularly as he might find that governing an independent nation really is quite expensive.

    Infrastructurally I'm quite certain Scotland is self-sufficient (it's not as though there's much population to sustain!), currency-wise I doubt there'd be any new currency, particularly with how shaky the Euro is right now.

  7. #67
    Activated Node mpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    Scotland as independent country...

    not going into much details but I would like to ask few questions:

    What about electricity, water, waste removal. I highly doubt Scotland supports itself fully. It might with proper rewiring, replumbing, even if it has currently the capacity to support whole country (does it?)
    Scotland's actually in not too bad a position when it comes to energy and water - we have better water, and more of it, than England, and the Scots don't pay water rates. The northern coast of Scotland is also where a lot of renewable energy generation research is taking place, and the country is littered with wind farms. SSE (one of the UK's Big Six energy companies, and the only one to be wholly UK owned) are also based in Perth, and are responsible for the energy distribution network from pretty much Stirling northwards. EDIT - Scottish Power/MANWEB are responsible for the rest of Scotland.)

    what about currency. Will people trust the new currency? Or will they use Euro instead? I know I would not trust it and would convert all my cash savings to USD or EUR. Many people would do the same. The currency would be unstable. Or will you keep using sterling? Being still depended on UK.
    Banks? They are tied to UK banking system. How would one propose making them part of Scottish system?
    As far as I'm aware, Salmond would keep Sterling as the Scottish currency. We already have our own banknotes and banking system, although since the UK Government now owns RBS and (I think) part of Halifax-Bank of Scotland, I think that leaves only the Clydesdale Bank as the last major independent Scottish bank (although Wikipedia tells me it's owned by the Aussies).


    NATO? Will Scotland become automatically part of the pact? What happens to soldiers from Scotland who serve now for UK. Will they become Scottish soldiers automatically?
    This I would also like to know.


    What happens to Scottish people living in other parts of the world? Can they chose whether they want to remain being UK citizens or will they be forced to become Scottish? Will David Tennant become a foreigner in England?
    I think normal rules of citizenship would apply - those born in Scotland, or born to Scottish parents would have Scottish nationality. The SNP says a Scottish passport would be available, though people with current UK passports would only have to apply for after the expiry date, as they are also EU passports. This assumes that Scotland joins the EU, though.

    What about towns in England where majority is scottish, what about towns in Scotland where majority of people are English?
    I dont think that's an issue, as I don't believe there are any towns in either Scotland or England where this would be the case.


    If Scotland becomes independent "quickly" (lets say in five years) the country will face massive problems. Expect poverty, violence, migration, drop in standards of living.
    So no different from now then? We're in the middle of a global recession, these are already problems that are being faced, which is why I believe independance should only occur when the global economy has recovered.

    Possible if it is gradual process.... lets say over fifty years.
    The agreement for Hong Kong to return to Chinese rule was signed in 1984, and the handover took place in 1997. I think that would be a more realistic timescale, although I imagine that if Salmond gets a "Yes" result he'll push for it to happen as soon as possible, within two-three years. The man is insane, and his whole life has been built round gaining Independance. The next Scottish election is due in 2016 - I would guess he'd try and get it done before the end of his parliament, simply so that a new government couldn't come in and scupper it. Although, since the result of the referendum would be written into law, I don't know if that's possible.

    For me... I don't like it. Im not Scottish nor British so its not really my place to say it, but I am European and I would like to see a united Europe. As one country not dozens of little ones.
    Would be nice. Unfortunately it's never going to happen as long as humanity remains as self interested and selfish as we currently are.

    EDIT: As an addendum, I feel I should point out to non-UK humans (and other species) that while Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, there are several fundamental areas of the nation that are completely seperate from England, Wales and Northern Ireland including, but not limited to, law, banking and education. The NHS is UK-wide however, and I would not want independance to cost us that.
    Last edited by mpk; 19-10-2012 at 10:47 PM.

  8. #68
    MPK: Regarding the Armed Forces, I think the issue of existing soldiers would be pretty simple - They signed a contract when they enlisted/receive a commission to serve the United Kingdom, it wouldn't be something they'd be able to transfer to Scotland. So, they wouldn't automatically be transferred over to Scotland. Their contracts would most likely be terminated, or they would not be allowed to re-enlist with the UK once they come up for renewal. Regiments would be renamed or disbanded, home base would be transferred etc. Scotland would probably create identical regiments, same name, livery etc.

    What I would be more interested in is what they do with regards to weaponry and vehicles. The current service rifle is part of the SA80 family, the L85A2 - But different countries have gone different ways. Sierra Leone, for instance, gained independence IIRC in the 70s, but they still use the rifle. Ireland on the other hand (again, IIRC) went completely the opposite way when they gained independence and adopted new vehicles, rifles etc.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    If Scotland is a country then it should be made independent involuntarily(additionally the falklands) because occupying other nations is illegal after WW2 (geneva?),
    Except it's not under occupation, having joined the UK by dint of an Act of Parliament (Scottish parliament at that). Independence would (theoretically) be as simple as repealing the Act of Union.
    In fact the only part of the UK which is technically under occupation is Wales, but it's debatable whether the Geneva convention applies to countries who's main ethnicity is "ovine".

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Scotland can't survive as an independent nation? I have never fully understood this viewpoint.
    Simple economics. Scotland doesn't really have anything the rest of the UK doesn't, so by declaring independence, we go from contributing to the economy of our neighbours to competing with them. And since 80% or so of the UK economy is based in England, it's pretty hard to see how we'd be able to effectively compete. The oil will only last so long, and that's assuming we actually get the revenue from it (while we would own most of the oil fields, we don't own the rigs or the refineries, which is something of a problem).
    In fact it's one of the reasons I think independence is pretty much a myth in the first place. We'd still be inextricably linked with what remained of the UK economically, and by removing any means of influencing or having a say in what it does I suspect we'd end up in an even worse position than we were prior to devolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    This independence referendum is the only way my country can get away from that system and to create our own system, preferably based on a republic.
    Which is better because ...?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    the reality is that most of the time we are bickering at each other over everything from crumbs to oil, from churches to chapels and from unfairness to discrimination.
    And independence will magically end that how precisely? I don't think the sectarianism is a result of being part of the UK, or the various feuds between towns and villages which are common throughout Europe.
    The Union and the Crown has done more harm than good.
    Yup. How awful for them to take a feudal, bankrupt backwater and turn it into a major player in the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution. Oh, and ruling the largest empire the world has ever seen.

    So do you have any actual reasons independence would be worthwhile apart from some half arsed romantic notion of nationalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph-Sulphur View Post
    Most of the people I talk to (I live in Edinburgh) like the SNP and the way it runs the devolved government, but aren't as sure about independence. I don't think it'll happen in 2014, but in a decade or two I think it most likely will.
    I tend to find most people (myself included) vote for the SNP primarily because of their socialist policies, but wish they'd drop the whole independence silliness.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpk View Post
    As far as I'm aware, Salmond would keep Sterling as the Scottish currency.
    Yup, complete with the Bank of England controlling the interest rates.
    I dont think that's an issue, as I don't believe there are any towns in either Scotland or England where this would be the case
    Well, Berwick. But I think that argument's been going on for a couple of centuries already.
    Quote Originally Posted by mpk View Post
    I would guess he'd try and get it done before the end of his parliament, simply so that a new government couldn't come in and scupper it. Although, since the result of the referendum would be written into law, I don't know if that's possible.
    I wouldn't be so sure. This is the third time the SNP have had the opportunity of having the referendum, and they've deliberately played to delay it until near the end of the term. I suspect Salmond is simply hoping for more power over Westminister and this is just going to be a fob to appease the nationalists. Certainly if the polls are accurate they've been in a better position to actually get a yes result before now.

  10. #70
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    Currently, for having 8.6% of the population we produce 9.4% of all revenues.

    Scotland owns 8.6% of all UK assets, other than fixed assets located within the territories of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland owns 8.6% of the Bank of England.

    Scotland receives less from the Union than it contributes, according to the UK government's own figures. All benefits paid out in Scotland total 40% of all revenues collected from Scotland. Across the UK as a whole, the benefits bill makes up 42% of all expenditure. This means that Scotland can more easily afford to pay decent benefits to its citizens than the UK as a whole is able to.

    Would an independent Scotland would end up like Greece? Post independence, Scotland is more likely to end up like Denmark, Finland, or Sweden. We have more in common with those countries than we do with Greece. But for some reason Unionists only like to link Scotland to failure. I wonder why that is? Just how poorly does a political class have to perform in order to believe that the only fair comparison of a country with Scotland's potential and resources is to compare us with nations on the verge of bankruptcy? Either they're spectacularly incompetent and feckless, or they think that we are. Gotta be one of the other, and I know which my money is on. Greece's problems have been caused by rampant corruption and tax evasion combined with a weak economy. Scottish tax offices are considerably more efficient, and the Scottish economy is much broader based and stronger than Greece's.

    And even if Scotland’s economy were to run at a deficit, that’s far from a sign of impending economic disaster. Name a country in the world without a surplus. If you look at other comparable small countries, Scotland’s deficit doesn’t look unusual. It’s the scale of national debt in the UK as a whole that stands out as being quite peculiar.

    Scotland's infrastructure is good enough for self-sufficiency.

    Scottish nationalism isn't insular. We have borders and we know how to reach beyond them.

    Unity isn't always the best method just because "we'd be bigger and stronger".

    I've taken a lot of this information from experts, as they can give a better educated opinion than myself. Much of the data is retrieved from the UK Government's own sources.
    Last edited by Adam; 20-10-2012 at 03:35 AM.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Unity isn't always the best method just because "we'd be bigger and stronger".


    Not bigger and stronger but more noticeable one of the reasons why I dislike this governments insistent of getting out of the EU and pissing them off is that we are only good on the national stage because of the EU, if we weren't part of that we would be a small nation island in the middle of nowhere that no one cares about. in this interconnected world that is the worst thing that could happen to you.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    All benefits paid out in Scotland total 40% of all revenues collected from Scotland.
    And how much does Scotland pay into the national army? Or the police budget? or the Foreign Office? Oh that's right, sod all, because those are paid for by the UK treasury. I guess we'll just ask them to continue paying for it post independence? Or perhaps our police, soldiers, diplomats and doctors would be willing to work for free?
    And even if Scotlandís economy were to run at a deficit, thatís far from a sign of impending economic disaster.
    Yes. It's the lack of any decent basis for an economy in the first place that's the sign of impending disaster.
    Unity isn't always the best method just because "we'd be bigger and stronger".
    Maybe not. But since the nationalists still seem utterly incapable of forming an argument for why we should be independent I'm going to stick with what's worked quite well for the last three hundred years.

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Not bigger and stronger but more noticeable one of the reasons why I dislike this governments insistent of getting out of the EU and pissing them off is that we are only good on the national stage because of the EU, if we weren't part of that we would be a small nation island in the middle of nowhere that no one cares about. in this interconnected world that is the worst thing that could happen to you.
    We are not some small, insignificant island, though. We are Great Britain. We have strong connections all over the world. We have close ties to the largest economy in the world. We are the 5th largest economy in the world.

    In any case, this government has no intentions on leaving the EU. That's why UKIP is polling so well.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world.
    You don't think being in the EU didn't contribute to that?

  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Bakke View Post
    You don't think being in the EU didn't contribute to that?
    I don't see why being in the EU would have greatly impacted the economy at all. It's not like we wouldn't trade with Europe or the rest of the world if we weren't in the EU. We're net contributors to the budget and our competitiveness on the global stage has come out of securing exceptions to EU legislation.
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  16. #76
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    I don't see why being in the EU would have greatly impacted the economy at all. It's not like we wouldn't trade with Europe or the rest of the world if we weren't in the EU. We're net contributors to the budget and our competitiveness on the global stage has come out of securing exceptions to EU legislation.
    EU free trade regs do make it a lot easier though.

  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    EU free trade regs do make it a lot easier though.
    Taken in isolation, the FTA would indeed be a great factor in our success. It's balanced out by the ECB, and subsidies which benefit other member states more than they benefit us (agricultural subsidies being the obvious example).
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  18. #78
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    You're right. Anybody who's running a trade deficit should immediately relinquish their independence, as they are clearly incapable of supporting themselves.

    這是好?
    The hell are you talking about?

  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world.
    Largely due to a financial apparatus that was crafted on the backs of colonial possessions. Otherwise you're a dinky, damp island that trades mostly in wool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    The hell are you talking about?
    Whoosh.
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  20. #80
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Largely due to a financial apparatus that was crafted on the backs of colonial possessions. Otherwise you're a dinky, damp island that trades mostly in wool.
    You trying to make a point, or just once again shitting on anybody with even the smallest measure of pride in Great Britain?
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