View Poll Results: Should Scotland go it alone?

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  • Yes

    18 43.90%
  • No

    23 56.10%
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  1. #81
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    And how much does Scotland pay into the national army? Or the police budget? Or the Foreign Office? Oh that's right, sod all, because those are paid for by the UK treasury. I guess we'll just ask them to continue paying for it post independence? Or perhaps our police, soldiers, diplomats and doctors would be willing to work for free?
    I didn't know countries like Denmark, Norway, Liechtenstein and even bloody Greece has no police, foreign offices, doctors and so on. After all they don't have a country like dear old England to support them.

    And for the record, Scotland pays its share.

    Scotland is more than capable to support itself. Being in the Union is actually costing Scotland. That is a proven fact.

    Many arguments from Unionists is nothing but scaremongering.

  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    You trying to make a point, or just once again shitting on anybody with even the smallest measure of pride in Great Britain?
    Unfounded pride is unfounded.
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  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Largely due to a financial apparatus that was crafted on the backs of colonial possessions. Otherwise you're a dinky, damp island that trades mostly in wool.
    You are confusing UK with New Zealand.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Just to clear up why I am not in Scotland if I love my country so much. I'm stuck abroad because of Theresa May, she and her Conservative cronies won't allow me to come home because my wife is Chinese and I'm not rich. Hopefully an independent Scotland would allow me to return with my wife, so I can also take care of my ailing mother and live a better quality life than we are now. But apparently, we are not good enough, and Albanian thieves are allowed to reside in our place.
    Just wanted to say that I'm in the exact same position. Except replace China with Japan. Good luck racking up the 63 thousand you need to get home.

    --

    As an Englishman I guess I generally feel it's not my place to tell other people what to do. If people don't want to be there then that's up to them. Personally, I'd find it kind of sad if the UK broke up, as I think we have a pretty great history and I feel that in the current globalized world bigger countries will be stronger than smaller ones. My viewpoint on that history might be different of course.

    To be honest, what I find rather sad is that the UK/GB has existed as an entity for so long and yet Scottish/N.Irish/Welsh/English people still feel Scottish/N.Irish/Welsh/English rather than British. I don't quite know why that happened when it hasn't really happened in most other countries... but it seems a shame to me. Japan used to consist of different kingdoms that were invaded and assimilated by the mainland, but people in all areas just feel "japanese". France used to be a whole load of different nations, but most people there seem to feel french. I guess I feel we'd all be stronger together.

    I blame the football.... I think if we'd had a UK/GB team only for the past 100 years then there'd be a different situation and we wouldn't be having an independence debate. Remember to merge the football teams next time!

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    We are not some small, insignificant island, though. We are Great Britain.


    You say that like we still have a large Empire willy that we can wave...we don't...

    We are the 5th largest economy in the world.


    Actually according to wikipedia were number 7 and were being beaten by Brazil now, I can in a few years time seeing us being beaten by india and other such nations, were slowly dwindling being nothing but a small nation that nobody particularly cares about.

    We're net contributors to the budget and our competitiveness on the global stage has come out of securing exceptions to EU legislation.


    You mean the exceptions that allow us not to be regulated so fraudulent bankers can use London as there personal Las Vegas, because that's where we get most of our money from to be honest i would rather not have those exceptions. Because generally those types of people don't like paying tax and its happening right now a lot of big companies not paying tax so what is the point of them being here they are wasting our resources by not giving much back.

  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post

    You say that like we still have a large Empire willy that we can wave...we don't...


    I say that like our history isn't irrelevant, like Nalano wants to believe. We are an English speaking kingdom still wielding disproportionate amounts of power considering our size. We don't have a large Empire like we used to, no, but we do have the Commonwealth. I can't think of any nations with ties to their history quite like ours.



    Actually according to wikipedia were number 7 and were being beaten by Brazil now, I can in a few years time seeing us being beaten by india and other such nations, were slowly dwindling being nothing but a small nation that nobody particularly cares about.
    5th or 7th, it's changing rapidly at the moment, but Brazil and even China are setting themselves up to fall by not learning from Europe's mistakes with natural resource exploitation, and they're doing it so quickly with the benefits of modern advancements that the fall is going to be harder and faster. I don't know where you get the impression that no one cares about us, though. We've the second strongest currency in Europe and fifth in the world, in fact our currency outstrips the IMF. We're still a hotbed of scientific and technological innovation and discovery, with some of the greatest educational institutions that people from all over the world flock to. Elizabeth II is the Queen of 16 nations and the head of state of 5 more. We're also plagued with white man's guilt to the point that people think we're insignificant, and thinking otherwise is labeled as xenophobic and racist.



    You mean the exceptions that allow us not to be regulated so fraudulent bankers can use London as there personal Las Vegas, because that's where we get most of our money from to be honest i would rather not have those exceptions. Because generally those types of people don't like paying tax and its happening right now a lot of big companies not paying tax so what is the point of them being here they are wasting our resources by not giving much back.
    I can't really argue with moral exceptions, as they're subjective. I don't have them. The point of big businesses being here is that they employ millions of people who do pay tax, on their income and their expenditure, in London for the majority they're probably taxed over 2/3 of their wealth (45% income + 20% VAT, council tax etc). Deregulation would work if it were complete - the problem we've had is that our financial sector is deregulated until it starts to make mistakes, and then Nanny comes in and rescues the poor gamblers, making tax payers shoulder their debts and absolving them of any responsibility in their decision making. Banks, and clients of banks, who make reckless decisions, should be punished if it doesn't pay off.

    Do you like paying tax? I sure as hell don't. If I weren't coerced into it, I wouldn't pay a penny to the state coffers. Europe's taxes are ridiculously high already. I don't blame big businesses for avoiding tax. The moment I can afford an accountant capable of doing so, I will be avoiding tax too.
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  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    Do you like paying tax? I sure as hell don't. If I weren't coerced into it, I wouldn't pay a penny to the state coffers.
    So you're down with no police force, army, national health, environmental protection and social safety net then? Or you just expect everyone else to pay for those things like some income support freeloader moonlighting cash in hand on the side?
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  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    So you're down with no police force, army, national health, environmental protection and social safety net then? Or you just expect everyone else to pay for those things like some income support freeloader moonlighting cash in hand on the side?
    I'd fund the specific services I want government to run. I'd pay for a centrally run military, and local law enforcement. Well, I would if the government would allow me to do that.
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  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Elizabeth II is the Queen of 16 nations and the head of state of 5 more.


    In more and more commenwealth countries the role of the queen is mostly that nice lady who lives in that country that used to own us maybe we should meet her when she comes and have no other significance most countries don't really mind us in the commenwealth they just get on with their own problems...or are used for Tax Heavens by the rich.

    Europe's taxes are ridiculously high already.


    Funnily enough the Scandinavian guys who have 50% taxes also have the best services...so yeah i don't mind paying tax and I dislike anyone who wants to get around tax through loopholes and the shiz you are making it ahrder on the rest of us that do have to pay.

  10. #90
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Show me an example of historical division that has been benefitial.
    Sweden and Norway have been doing alright since the union was dissolved in 1905.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Not bigger and stronger but more noticeable one of the reasons why I dislike this governments insistent of getting out of the EU and pissing them off is that we are only good on the national stage because of the EU, if we weren't part of that we would be a small nation island in the middle of nowhere that no one cares about. in this interconnected world that is the worst thing that could happen to you.
    While it's true that your word to some extent carries more weight the more people it has behind it, this can also become a problem when those being represented don't feel like their views and wishes are being carried through as compromises have to be made in ever bigger arenas.

    Norway (which is an EEA country but not a member of the EU) serves as an example of how a small country can do perfectly fine without the EU. Compared to the UK, Norway is tiny, with less than 5 million people compared to over 60 million, so the idea that being small automatically makes other countries roll right over you seems flawed. Comparing Norway and Sweden, one outside and one within the EU, shows that having a stable society, ordered finances and something to offer the rest of the world is far more important than what club you happen to belong to.

    Not that I have any idea if any of this applies to Scotland. Spending more time around British people in the last few years I've been surprised at how differently you seem to perceive each other whereas I think to people of other countries you seem like a fairly homogenous bunch.

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Sweden and Norway have been doing alright since the union was dissolved in 1905.
    Would things be any worse if the union was still going?

    Norway (which is an EEA country but not a member of the EU) serves as an example of how a small country can do perfectly fine without the EU. Compared to the UK, Norway is tiny, with less than 5 million people compared to over 60 million, so the idea that being small automatically makes other countries roll right over you seems flawed. Comparing Norway and Sweden, one outside and one within the EU, shows that having a stable society, ordered finances and something to offer the rest of the world is far more important than what club you happen to belong to.
    The fundamental problem with the UK is we long since stopped having a solid manufacturing base, coupled with the fact that we are grossly overpopulated given the size of our land mass (6th of the population of the US and around 49th of the land area). Realistically we need a population sub 15 million for long term sustainability along the lines of a Sweden or Denmark tbh. As it presently stands it's questionable whether we could feed our present population without food imports and that's kind of a crazy situation to find yourself in as a country tbh, especially given we've an infrastructure system principally built around a rapidly diminishing and increasingly expensive energy resource.
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  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Would things be any worse if the union was still going?
    That's almost impossible to answer. Sweden probably wouldn't have been able to stay out of WW2 if we were still in a union with Norway for example, and it's difficult to speculate on what the consequences of that would have been. It's also worth mentioning that Norway didn't choose to enter into a union with Sweden in the first place and it's very possible that trying to maintain it would have led to war. It's hard to argue that either nation was hurt by dissolving the union, at least not in the long term. If you asked a Norwegian or a Finn if they thought entering a union with Sweden would be a good idea today they'd probably laugh at you and think you were insane (or stab you, in the case of the Finns (just kidding, Finlanders!)).

    On the other hand the Nordic countries have generally had a lot of shared goals and some of the union ideas have remained and been expanded in all sort of areas in the latter half of the 20th century up to today, like defense, trade, infrastructure, education and the freedom to travel and work freely anywhere within Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. I don't know nearly enough about the UK to say if that would be a feasible model for an independent Scotland within Great Britain (and the basic premise is not the same of course), but it shows that forming separate nation states doesn't necessarily have to mean one or both has to come out weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    As it presently stands it's questionable whether we could feed our present population without food imports and that's kind of a crazy situation to find yourself in as a country tbh, especially given we've an infrastructure system principally built around a rapidly diminishing and increasingly expensive energy resource.
    Sticking with the Norway example I'm pretty sure they don't have enough arable land to feed their population either, but they do of course have the benefit of being filthy rich from all the oil money they're making. As I said I don't know enough about the UK to make any claims either way but the view of the EU as absolutely necessary worries me quite a bit.

  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    In more and more commenwealth countries the role of the queen is mostly that nice lady who lives in that country that used to own us maybe we should meet her when she comes and have no other significance most countries don't really mind us in the commenwealth they just get on with their own problems...or are used for Tax Heavens by the rich.
    Exactly. Here in Australia the Queen is a relic of the past that we keep because saying things like "the Crown" sounds a lot more awesome and mystical than "the State" or something. We like seeing the Queen and the Royal Family and smile and wave, but otherwise the Queen is just a ceremonial figurehead. The government does whatever it likes, Royal Assent is just a rubber stamp wielded by the Governor General who could be called Chief Rectum of the Faecal Throne for all we care. There are plenty of arguments to remove the Queen, but at the end of the day it's a change in wording only, not in operation. We'd keep doing exactly what we've been doing since 1901.

    That said, mickygor is right that the British Empire was a remarkable achievement... though whether or not it was a good thing is yet to be seen. In my opinion by and large it worked out well for Australia (unless you're an indigenous person, but that's a topic where there's no safe ground so I'll leave that alone) but probably not for plenty of other places. Is it relevant today? As history, sure. But otherwise no, it isn't.


    Also I don't know why so many people are equating Nationalism with borderline-fascism. Sure pointless nationalism to incite hatred and single-minded support of the state is absurd, but I don't see anything wrong with being proud of how a country is run. I'm proud to be Australian for many reasons - extensive public healthcare which does the best with what we've got, high standards of living, a reasonably balanced set of political values... but that doesn't mean I'm blind to our problems or give unconditional support. Namely our politicians are still idiots (all of them, but especially the Greens), the immigration issue is fueled part by xenophobia and part by people trying to claim the moral high ground, and for the part we've played in Iraq etc.

  14. #94
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    In my opinion by and large it worked out well for Australia (unless you're an indigenous person, but that's a topic where there's no safe ground so I'll leave that alone) but probably not for plenty of other places. Is it relevant today? As history, sure. But otherwise no, it isn't.
    I'm pretty sure if you ask an Aboriginal person if it's relevant today, they'll tell you that it's damn well relevant today. Yeah, you want to tread lightly because there are no right answers for you, and you'd just as soon forget the whole thing - after all, look how good your life is - but I'm sure you're smart enough to understand why you can't and shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Also I don't know why so many people are equating Nationalism with borderline-fascism.
    Because nationalism can only be defined by equating X people with your nation and Y people with not your nation, with X being superior to Y. It starts with "we are proud of our achievements" and ends with "we deserve your land more than you do."
    Last edited by Nalano; 22-10-2012 at 03:33 AM.
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  15. #95
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I'm pretty sure if you ask an Aboriginal person if it's relevant today, they'll tell you that it's damn well relevant today. Yeah, you want to tread lightly because there are no right answers for you, and you'd just as soon forget the whole thing - after all, look how good your life is - but I'm sure you're smart enough to understand why you can't and shouldn't.
    Actually with that statement I wasn't referring to the impact on the indigenous peoples, but rather the other guy claiming that the British Empire is worth banging on about today. It's relevant only as history. But since you've decided to link that to indigenous issues, I don't think that statement changes. It's still historically relevant, which I did say is still relevant and important for today. But only as a reminder of the past.

    Regarding indigenous issues, that's such an incredibly complex mess that the reason I won't touch it is because nobody ever wins that argument. To blame colonisation for all of the indigenous population's problems is just as ignorant as to call them lazy druggies looking to get their next bottle of metho. It sure didn't help them, but any attempt at intervention to improve situations today is met with violent resistance, and not necessarily from the indigenous communities either.

    Also it's impossible to forget what happened during colonisation - the Stolen Generation, the concept of terra nullius and the Mabo decision, the impact on their health, do you really think we elect to forget that? We don't. You can't, because there are plenty of reminders of it, particularly if you've ever set foot in a university or listened to the ABC for more than a few minutes. But it happened, we can't change that, we all know that it happened. Reminders of how bad it was and how there are still gaps to close are useless when nobody is willing to offer or accept any suggestions - which is what I mean by the moral highground. Plenty of commentators, politicians and activists (mostly white incidentally) will scream loudly that intervention is bad or remind us yet again of the horrific past, but none will offer solutions. Why? Because intervention is bad, apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Because nationalism can only be defined by equating X people with your nation and Y people with not your nation, with X being superior to Y. It starts with "we are proud of our achievements" and ends with "we deserve your land more than you do."
    So basically we should stay in a self hate spiral because if you like something it invariably leads to hate? Really?

  16. #96
    Activated Node Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I blame the football... I think if we'd had a UK/GB team only for the past 100 years then there'd be a different situation and we wouldn't be having an independence debate. Remember to merge the football teams next time!
    This has nothing to do with sport, this is actually a very serious topic. If people vote yes for independence because they love Braveheart and they want to get one over England, then they are simply an uneducated and misguided fool. I don't need to say any more.

    The reason why Scotland is moving towards independence is because it is beneficial for our country. Scotland needs full control over all decisions for its own future. I'm sure we will see many independent reviews and reports over the coming months that will verify Scotland can strive as an independent nation. It is already proven by facts that Scotland pays more into the Union than what is given back in return. Although it is very complex to discuss as the media constantly distorts a lot of the facts in a bid to save the Union.

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    I have to say, watching "You've Been Trumped" is basically a warning of some of the potential pitfalls of independence and shows up the government and several institutions to be rather in thrall to massive wads of cash.

  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The reason why Scotland is moving towards independence is because it is beneficial for our country. Scotland needs full control over all decisions for its own future. I'm sure we will see many independent reviews and reports over the coming months that will verify Scotland can strive as an independent nation. It is already proven by facts that Scotland pays more into the Union than what is given back in return. Although it is very complex to discuss as the media constantly distorts a lot of the facts in a bid to save the Union.


    Is it though, you could go to the government and say we would like some more of our money please, and maybe some more autonomy but I've not seen a real convincing argument of completely breaking up, from alex Salmonds sayings you would pretty much be together anyway since you would get money from the bank of england, which means that you would have to have people here negotiating money anyway...so really what is the difference?

    So basically we should stay in a self hate spiral because if you like something it invariably leads to hate?Really?


    Not exactly but even hearing from moderate views of independence from these people in the thread scares me a little bit, your all jovial and then your like i don't care about england and i want our land...yes that would lead to hate eventually.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Scotland needs full control over all decisions for its own future.
    You intend to campaign to leave the EU then?
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  20. #100
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    I hear this in relation to Northern Ireland all the time except there's more schools of thought there such as staying under British rule, rejoining the Republic, going solo and people not caring.

    I don't understand nearly enough about the economic/social/political burdens and advantages that changing the current system with the North would have, which is someone almost everyone seems to overlook. I live in the South and there is an attitude of Us and Them, mostly spurred on by angry people who would make comments like "I wouldn't spit on the Queen if she was on fire". Most of them want the north back because "it's our land and they took it from us".

    If the Republic and North rejoining under one nation would mean an improvement in the economy and society for Ireland then great, we need something like that. However it's gone past the stage that we could ever get the people of the North to agree on what way to go and even after a vote there would be issues for years. I'd wager Scotland should only go it alone if there's advantages to it beyond saying "this is our land". Chances are you're going to be ruled by someone else anyway or your country is going to have a hard time going it alone unless it has the resources required for stability.

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