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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Surface tablets will be doorstops in 2 years -if they take-off at all - where does that leave us I wonder?
    Microsoft have sold quite a few of them already, and that's only the Surface RT. Interest is much higher in the Surface Pro, but I think people are kidding themselves if they expect tablet endurance from a Core i5. There's a reason ARM devices have superb battery life...

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I just don't like the idea that the desktop I or my users are using has been perverted for the sake of trying to compete with Apple when...
    They're competing with Apple in the sense that they want the tablet sector. Microsoft tried a tablet version of Windows back when the tablet form factor was a new thing. It was basically Windows XP with a stylus and it was terrible. The UI is totally unsuited to it. Fast forward to Win7 and absolutely nothing has changed.

    Apple's only real success with the iPad (in terms of a device) is to make an OS that wasn't useless with a touch screen. Of course they made a lot of compromises with that and sold it primary to "consume" content (though it's since moved away from that). Otherwise iOS is a frustrating piece of shit, and Android isn't much better.

    MS are competing with Apple in that they're trying to capture the tablet market and integrate their own ecosystem. As part of that they're trying to unify the platforms, which isn't a bad goal. I don't know why it's such a bad thing to have my desktop and tablet share the same ecosystem. What Microsoft screwed up was enforcing tablet gestures onto desktop users with mice. That part is bullshit and that seems to be where all the complaints come from. I think another issue that people have with the change is that we've had the Start menu since Windows 95 and it's only really changed with an added Search bar over the years. The Start menu needed an overhaul or a replacement, and we got it. I think the icons are still too large for a desktop but functionally it's not a massive change. Really I think a lot of the resistance to the Start screen comes about from a sense of tradition than it being an actual UI nightmare (except for the gestures, again that's bullshit).

    The other major "complaint" (fear-mongering might be a better term) about trying to lock x86 apps is absurd. They won't do it. They'd be stupid to try it in this day and age. It'd kill the golden goose. Again the software library is absolutely massive and legacy support is still remarkably extensive (yes, CPUs etc, lease don't bring up your P4 again I already know the story). Do you honestly believe they'd kill that and infuriate pretty much all of the business users relying on that support, along with pretty much everyone else using Windows?

    10 or 20 years from now things might be different, but computing will probably be a hell of a lot different too (if you tried telling us 8 years ago that we'd all be buying games on Steam and you'd have been laughed out of a forum) so it might not be so much of an issue. Whether or not the Windows Store is any good remains to be seen (and part of that will be up to the developers - plenty of them can't even manage to release proper Android apps and just target iOS). But again, the x86 lockdown is pure FUD. Croteam are picking up someone else's ball and running with it. GabeN is worried about one thing - Steam's Profits, and you can bet that he'd love an OS that was locked into Steam's walled garden. Unfortunately, most of the people on RPS would line up to buy into it.

  2. #62
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    As someone who develops for Android/iOS, I'm not impressed with their tablet offerings in OS/capability terms BUT it's fascinating to see what a success the iPad has become, because it's almost entirely down to software developers embracing it and making things which work on it.

    Android's tablet offerings are largely phone apps 'scaled up' (and often not properly) - but there are some genuinely innovative and cool things available on iPad and it's made it the best tablet by FAR

    I just don't see that happening for Surface - the sort of people who come-up with this stuff are very enamoured of Apple and see their devices as the 'creatives choice' which is why we get art stuff and music stuff which isn't so common on other platforms.

    MS know that a staggering number of people buy a laptop 'for Facebook' tho and they realise that those people are now not bothering because their phone/a tablet can do that. MS probably think they can woo these people back - I think they can't and I've NO idea who will buy their tablets otherwise, aside from risk-averse IT managers (who are the only people MS make money from anyway!)

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Android's tablet offerings are largely phone apps 'scaled up' (and often not properly) - but there are some genuinely innovative and cool things available on iPad and it's made it the best tablet by FAR
    I totally agree, Android is remarkably backwards with tablets. People asked why I got an iPad instead of one of the Android tabs, but that's the exact reason why I don't use them. It's like tablets are an afterthought.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I just don't see that happening for Surface - the sort of people who come-up with this stuff are very enamoured of Apple and see their devices as the 'creatives choice' which is why we get art stuff and music stuff which isn't so common on other platforms.
    This is obviously subjective, but I don't see many people using iPads to "create" anything. I know there's a bunch of art and music stuff but I'd say it's a safe bet that by and large the average user doesn't use them. One thing I do notice however is that people get frustrated with shuffling files through iTunes and not being able to properly edit Word documents or something. My dad is always asking for help on how to get File X or Y to his iPad (thankfully apps like GoodReader have made this a lot easier) and then asks why he can't edit it or why his Word docs formatting is screwed up. "Why can't I just plug in my USB drive? Why can't I just copy files off the iPad? Why does this have to be such a chore?"

    If we're talking about the Surface RT (not the Pro, where you might as well just call it a really small Ultrabook with a touch screen, I think 'tablet' implies an ARM processor these days) then you're right that it's got a hell of an uphill fight going up against the iPad, not only because of the massive app market but like you said it's entrenched as the popular choice. But a mostly functional version of Office (save for macros/scripts etc, which won't matter to a lot of users) as well as proper NTFS/FAT32 volume support, does it put in a better position from a utility perspective. Without the apps to follow though you're right, it's not going to make it.

    Also IE10 is horrible under ModernUI.

  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    This is obviously subjective, but I don't see many people using iPads to "create" anything. I know there's a bunch of art and music stuff but I'd say it's a safe bet that by and large the average user doesn't use them. One thing I do notice however is that people get frustrated with shuffling files through iTunes and not being able to properly edit Word documents or something. My dad is always asking for help on how to get File X or Y to his iPad (thankfully apps like GoodReader have made this a lot easier) and then asks why he can't edit it or why his Word docs formatting is screwed up. "Why can't I just plug in my USB drive? Why can't I just copy files off the iPad? Why does this have to be such a chore?"
    lol, your dad actually knows how to use a usb drive? That must be an uncomfortable demographic to be in: "old people" who lack advanced computer-fu but have discovered how to copy from and to flash drives!

    First thing I did for my dad after gifting him an iPad was purchasing Pages. He can now open and edit pdf/word docs emailed to him, then just send them when needed. Luckily, he has not discovered usb drives!
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  5. #65
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    I'm also slightly surprised that the EU is still fighting the Browser battle against MS (in a world where chrome is now #1), but there seems to be little movement against MS or Google for their stores. I figure apple avoided problems for a long time due to being a much smaller market. But you'd think regulators would want to force all three to open up their stores.

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    lol, your dad actually knows how to use a usb drive? That must be an uncomfortable demographic to be in: "old people" who lack advanced computer-fu but have discovered how to copy from and to flash drives!

    First thing I did for my dad after gifting him an iPad was purchasing Pages. He can now open and edit pdf/word docs emailed to him, then just send them when needed. Luckily, he has not discovered usb drives!
    Well he used to be pretty computer literate in the early 90s. Pages isn't bad I guess but it's still absurdly frustrating. Also none of them properly support docx formatting.

  7. #67
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    This - whilst a bit grating in places - pretty much explains my issues with the Win8 interface concepts

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsy...ure=watch-vrec

    Nicely, they also have a guide to get around a lot of the shit - but the shit is there...

  8. #68
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    It's not too bad. I probably should have stuck with Windows 7 as I've had some driver issues, which I still haven't find a fix for. I also liked Aero, but the 'Metro' desktop UI is quite nice. I also quite like the Start Screen and the swipes/hotspots are quite good (though I would like there to be: all program/app swipe, just desktop swipe and a just app swipe).

    I find the picture password thing to be rather pointless; on large screens it just makes it easier for people to see your 'password'.

    The new task manager is certainly better. I haven't really seen any increases in performance; perhaps if I did a clean install, but that would be hard to judge with an old Windows 7 install.

    I must say though, the very first thing I did after installation was buy and install Start8. Windows just felt wrong without a Start orb and I can now avoid the Start Screen completely should I wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    They're competing with Apple in the sense that they want the tablet sector. Microsoft tried a tablet version of Windows back when the tablet form factor was a new thing. It was basically Windows XP with a stylus and it was terrible. The UI is totally unsuited to it. Fast forward to Win7 and absolutely nothing has changed.
    As someone who uses a TabletPC daily, I say this is a load of malarkey. Sure, it takes some getting used to and XP Tablet Edition wasn't the best, but from Vista onwards, TabletPCs were definitely not terrible; all native Windows applications supported touch very well. The only real problem was the size of the UI, but as a TabletPCs were intended to be both tablets and standard computers, this meant a trade off somewhere. As most TabletPCs come with styli, which essential act like mice, the problem was even less significant.

    Now, Windows 8 does make using a TabletPC better; with essentially two different ecosystems, one made especially for touch. 'Metro' or ModernUI still seems rather limited and I still use the desktop most of the time on my TabletPC, even in tablet mode. I think it's probably the way the ModernUI apps take up the whole screen.
    Last edited by Tams80; 10-11-2012 at 07:19 PM.

  9. #69
    Network Hub Maknol's Avatar
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    Thanks for that link, it does highlight several problems I had while trying it.

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tams80 View Post
    I find the picture password thing to be rather pointless; on large screens it just makes it easier for people to see your 'password'.
    Well, it's designed for tablet touch screens...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tams80 View Post
    As someone who uses a TabletPC daily, I say this is a load of malarkey.
    And yet it wasn't until the iPad that the form factor became popular, so unfortunately it isn't. Tablets as a form factor didn't catch on until the iPad and even then they appeared in a different role. The older style tablet PCs were inconvenient, underperforming, and needed a stylus as you said. It didn't help that the touch screens weren't particularly good.

    Even with Vista and Win7 changing a few things for touch interfaces, Windows was designed for a mouse. Try using Win8's classic desktop on a Surface RT - it's frustrating because the UI is still tiny. A stylus is an inconvenience.

    No, tablet PCs weren't any good until just recently. Which is why few people ever bought them, particularly in the consumer sector. In fact the only place I see the old tablet PC form factor these days (pre iPad generation) is in Toughbooks with ambulance and healthcare services. Even then they're a pain to use.

  11. #71
    Lesser Hivemind Node DigitalSignalX's Avatar
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    I used XP for quite a long time, and avoided upgrading only till I absolutely had to for DX11 gaming. Skipping Vista, I went to Win7 and was very happy with the reliability, security, and performance upgrades. I still use a classic desktop on 7, and the behind the scenes changes on 8 are simply not significant enough to warrant an upgrade IMHO since the Metro and cosmetic changes frankly are not desirable.

    I feel absolutely no need to upgrade to 8, even though that is an awesome deal.
    All times I have enjoyed greatly, have suffered greatly, both with those that loved me, and alone.

  12. #72
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalSignalX View Post
    I feel absolutely no need to upgrade to 8, even though that is an awesome deal.
    one has to wonder why they are almost giving their OS away this time though.

  13. #73
    Network Hub Maknol's Avatar
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    I'd say the ads embedded in the Metro apps are a good clue.

    Also, this.
    http://boingboing.net/2012/11/08/mic...ing-on-yo.html

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maknol View Post
    I'd say the ads embedded in the Metro apps are a good clue.
    Haven't seen any yet.

    If that ends up happening, I'll be on the frontlines to fight it. But right now they've just patented a stupid ideas. As the article points out, lots of companies patent things that don't make it into their products. It's disturbing, but isn't a reality.

  15. #75
    Network Hub Maknol's Avatar
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    Try scrolling all the way to the right in the weather app, that's the one I usually see mentioned.

    As for the patent, true. But it doesn't help their case in any way.

  16. #76
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    You know that adds that are in the app are put there by developers and not directly by MS. Patent wise they could be using it to get the Entertainment industry of their back for not doing anything to stop whatever you want to call this (presumably they want to call it piracy). It's the same thing that happened in Ireland, the record industry threatened to sue a number of ISP's (or was it the Govt can't remember) if they didn't block TPB.

  17. #77
    Network Hub Maknol's Avatar
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    http://adage.com/article/digital/mic...s-apps/238099/

    I'm assuming Microsoft takes a cut in the advertisement proceedings of third-party apps, but I don't know enough to say for sure.

    Ads in their own apps are all profit for Microsoft, of course.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maknol View Post
    http://adage.com/article/digital/mic...s-apps/238099/

    I'm assuming Microsoft takes a cut in the advertisement proceedings of third-party apps, but I don't know enough to say for sure.

    Ads in their own apps are all profit for Microsoft, of course.
    Basically they have an SDK for developers (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...ads.10%29.aspx) to plug in areas in their app that will be reserved for adds. This area is generic so i don't go about putting in an add for Coke MS will automatically do that for me. It's the pay by click method anyway. MS probably got a killing fee from those companies they can boast a user base of 860 million potential customers.

  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maknol View Post
    Try scrolling all the way to the right in the weather app, that's the one I usually see mentioned.
    Huh, never noticed that before. All it ever seems to display for me though is an ad for Bing Travel.

  20. #80
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    advertisements. great.

    I'd love to know why Sinofsky (sp?) was fired.

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