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  1. #201
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I feel like people's concerns about the interface and people's concerns about the store (eg: Gabe Newell) got conflated into some giant internet viewpoint that win 8 was awful. I've had people who know nothing about it tell me that it's awful. I tend to find most people who hate it haven't actually really tried it.
    Of course they haven't, they don't want to. Which is fine but some of the FUD is absurd. Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable. Plus it serves as a convenient scapegoat to push us onto the hypothetical SteamOS, which is the same thing except with Steam instead of the Windows Store. Progress!

    The UI is still a pain though, we need a button for the Charms bar.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
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  2. #202
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable. Plus it serves as a convenient scapegoat to push us onto the hypothetical SteamOS, which is the same thing except with Steam instead of the Windows Store. Progress!
    Newell's FUD-peddling to some degree, but I wouldn't say it's completely absurd or that the threat is "laughable". It's unlikely in the short term, but given Microsoft's lurching business changes in pursuit of a slice of the lucrative curated storefront pie, I don't think it's an impossibility. Some Microsoft executives surely want Windows gaming to behave more like iOS gaming (with attendant cuts to Microsoft for advertising, hosting, cert/approval, etc, which would cut into Steam's business). Microsoft's (terrible) track record of promoting Windows as a gaming platform is not reassuring, nor is the inexorable increase in uniformity between Xbox services and Microsoft's preferred Windows gaming experience.

    I just don't want the Windows Store or the associated "we are gatekeepers for good apps" mentality to gain enough traction to threaten the traditionally-open desktop computing paradigm on Windows; I want future iterations of Windows to look more like 8 than RT. I've similar concerns about Steam and their hamfisted Greenlight endeavor: artificial bottlenecks on availability hamper the variety of the platform. It's arguable that you gain a more consistent experience in so doing (if the cert/approval process is good), but I still don't think that's an appropriate mentality for such high-volume generalized stores, and especially not for operating systems as a whole. It seems there's a growing contingent at Microsoft that envisions Windows as something of a store in and of itself, but I'd rather they think of it as privately-built civic infrastructure.

    fwiw I like Valve's Linux initiative, but I think they'd seem more genuine if they brought their sales model more in line with the spirit of FOSS (i.e. be more like GOG and highlight DRM-free games in the store, promote "DRM-free" as better than the alternative, stop bullshitting about CEG not being DRM, stop DRMing their own SP games, etc). Personally, this strikes me as a great way to differentiate their store from the majority of other digital publishers. Demagogue things up a bit and appeal to many peoples' freedom-loving tendencies. Depict closed systems as elitist stiflers of free-market vibrancy. Steam: Capitalism Democratized!

    lol



    But yes, Windows 8 is fine. I wouldn't call it a compelling or necessary upgrade to Windows 7 at the $75-95 I've seen it selling for, but it's certainly not bad, and I wouldn't put 7 on a new machine if I was buying a new OS for it.

  3. #203
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Of course they haven't, they don't want to. Which is fine but some of the FUD is absurd. Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable. Plus it serves as a convenient scapegoat to push us onto the hypothetical SteamOS, which is the same thing except with Steam instead of the Windows Store. Progress!

    The UI is still a pain though, we need a button for the Charms bar.
    It's a very real threat. Microsoft are already referring to classic applications as "legacy", which means something you want to kill off as soon as possible. They're clearly heading for an Apple-style walled garden. The question is whether they'll meet enough resistance to dissuade them from such plans.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Of course they haven't, they don't want to. Which is fine but some of the FUD is absurd. Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    Newell's FUD-peddling to some degree, but I wouldn't say it's completely absurd or that the threat is "laughable". It's unlikely in the short term, but given Microsoft's lurching business changes in pursuit of a slice of the lucrative curated storefront pie, I don't think it's an impossibility. Some Microsoft executives surely want Windows gaming to behave more like iOS gaming (with attendant cuts to Microsoft for advertising, hosting, cert/approval, etc, which would cut into Steam's business). Microsoft's (terrible) track record of promoting Windows as a gaming platform is not reassuring, nor is the inexorable increase in uniformity between Xbox services and Microsoft's preferred Windows gaming experience.

    I just don't want the Windows Store or the associated "we are gatekeepers for good apps" mentality to gain enough traction to threaten the traditionally-open desktop computing paradigm on Windows; I want future iterations of Windows to look more like 8 than RT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    It's a very real threat. Microsoft are already referring to classic applications as "legacy", which means something you want to kill off as soon as possible. They're clearly heading for an Apple-style walled garden. The question is whether they'll meet enough resistance to dissuade them from such plans.
    I think that the store risk IS the only genuine complaint that can be levelled at Windows 8. It is rather worrying that they've started to refer to software as 'legacy apps'. But it's also pretty hard to imagine the metro apps ever really supplanting the desktop apps. I was worried about it, and I guess it could happen and might be the start of a slippery slope.

    But right now the metro apps are so much more lightweight than the 'legacy' apps. they work great for things like news/twitter/etc.. , but they don't come close for complex things like photoshop, etc.. Which is to be expected, as smartphone/tablet/metro apps are designed with a totally different mindset and design goals to desktop apps.

    So, as of right now, they work quite well in combination - removing the 'light' apps to a more convenient location to make room for the 'heavy apps'.

    And as of right now, there aren't many decent apps anyway, so I can't see it taking off. (especially based on the low number of reviews for most apps and the huge amount of junk apps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    But yes, Windows 8 is fine. I wouldn't call it a compelling or necessary upgrade to Windows 7 at the $75-95 I've seen it selling for, but it's certainly not bad, and I wouldn't put 7 on a new machine if I was buying a new OS for it.
    That's the thing that's confusing/annoying. If there was a decent debate on the risks of a walled garden store then that would be one thing, but as the whole thing just seems to be people trashing it cos it's different, it's just a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The UI is still a pain though, we need a button for the Charms bar.
    I haven't found a need for one so far, why do you think it's needed?

    It also sounds like they're considering putting a start button back for 8.1. I'm a bit torn on that. I guess a button gives a nice target for people who don't know about it, but it seems totally un-needed as there is basically still a button there in windows 8.

  5. #205
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    It's a very real threat. Microsoft are already referring to classic applications as "legacy", which means something you want to kill off as soon as possible. They're clearly heading for an Apple-style walled garden. The question is whether they'll meet enough resistance to dissuade them from such plans.
    They'd effectively wipe out the majority of their software library and render the OS useless overnight, they're not going to move towards that model. Metro languishes with pathetic app support which shows little sign of changing. Look at the Windows Mobile/Phone platform - it never took off, and Metro is effectively its own platform tacked onto a popular desktop OS. The only person who seriously believes WinRT will be the path of now and forever is Paul Thurrot, and even then that was back in 2011. MS won't lock down the desktop. Even Apple haven't done it yet, and they're the ones in prime position for it (their current solution is much the same as the Windows SmartScreen nonsense that nobody enables).

    Gabe is stoking the fires you move all of us onto his platform. That's the real reason for the complaining - it's a perfect opportunity to scare people into moving to another platform. That too could result in a whole lot of nothing if nobody bothers to support it, and unless Valve maintain a very stable OS there's no danger of a massive shift to Linux anytime soon.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  6. #206
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    They'd effectively wipe out the majority of their software library and render the OS useless overnight, they're not going to move towards that model. Metro languishes with pathetic app support which shows little sign of changing. Look at the Windows Mobile/Phone platform - it never took off, and Metro is effectively its own platform tacked onto a popular desktop OS. The only person who seriously believes WinRT will be the path of now and forever is Paul Thurrot, and even then that was back in 2011. MS won't lock down the desktop. Even Apple haven't done it yet, and they're the ones in prime position for it (their current solution is much the same as the Windows SmartScreen nonsense that nobody enables).
    The majority of PC users (in my experience servicing and selling PCs) use computers as a web portal and AV player. A smaller percentage use dedicated tax, spreadsheet and word processing software. A smaller percentage still play non-browser games. Fewer do photo & video processing. An even-smaller crowd do audio editing, 2D/3D asset-creation, etc. In my estimation 3/5ths of users are in the first category, 1/5th in the second, and the rest in the latter three. Then there's the cyclical business market.

    Why is uptake of low-powered portal-like mobile devices increasing while PC sales plateau or trend down? It's because most people in western markets already have a mostly-disused PC, and most people in emerging markets don't want what PCs provide and generally can't afford it anyway. That's why MS is trying what Apple's trying, namely moving away from the general-use and/or power-user demographic and toward the more profitable "app-store" type market. MS will inevitably try to more closely ape Apple (and Google, ftm). I'm sure necktied MS executives regularly cast a green-eyed gaze over Apple's margins. And there's shareholder value to be increased...

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Gabe is stoking the fires you move all of us onto his platform. That's the real reason for the complaining - it's a perfect opportunity to scare people into moving to another platform. That too could result in a whole lot of nothing if nobody bothers to support it, and unless Valve maintain a very stable OS there's no danger of a massive shift to Linux anytime soon.
    Linux is hardly Gabe Newell's platform. I like Steam well enough, but I think their stance on DRM is extremely disingenuous and I don't like how they artificially gate the platform.

    Anyway, it's at least conceivable that concerted uptake of Linux could lead to its becoming a viable alternative to Windows, in which case everybody but Microsoft would profit (and Steam wouldn't magically be the only way to get Linux games). Then we wouldn't have the extra OS cost on top of DIY PCs, Genuine Windows all other such craptastic validation would disappear, OEMs and big institutions wouldn't have to deal with tedious volume licensing, and the bullshitty draconian rigmarole of MS audits would die, as it damn-well should.

    ... one can hope.

  7. #207
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Well, I had a weird problem on my laptop (froze on battery power, not on AC, but only in Windows and not in Linux), so I decided to reinstall it. Since I have a MSDN-AA copy of Windows 8, I'll try that out again.

    Maybe it's better on laptops.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    Anyway, it's at least conceivable that concerted uptake of Linux could lead to its becoming a viable alternative to Windows, in which case everybody but Microsoft would profit (and Steam wouldn't magically be the only way to get Linux games). Then we wouldn't have the extra OS cost on top of DIY PCs, Genuine Windows all other such craptastic validation would disappear, OEMs and big institutions wouldn't have to deal with tedious volume licensing, and the bullshitty draconian rigmarole of MS audits would die, as it damn-well should.

    ... one can hope.
    Absolutely all of this and more. We might even get less software patent wars. And the biggest part about a massive shift to Linux would be that when one person does a bug-fix on the software that they sell, there's a substantial chance that it could benefit everyone. A constant churn of updates incorporated from hundreds of motivated large companies would be very, very nice.

  9. #209
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    I do hope that Linux makes it to the top of PC gaming, but until then I'll stick with Win 7. Win 8 is only suitable for touch screen? So everything is big on the screen and the icons are large?

    And I'll be really upset if they have a Directx12 only for Windows 8.

  10. #210
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickgeneral View Post
    I do hope that Linux makes it to the top of PC gaming, but until then I'll stick with Win 7. Win 8 is only suitable for touch screen? So everything is big on the screen and the icons are large?

    And I'll be really upset if they have a Directx12 only for Windows 8.
    I wouldn't go that far.

    There are definitely a lot of questionable design choices that are touch-oriented, but it also works well enough with a mouse and keyboard. There is a lot of wasted screen space, but the biggest issues are just that it is different from previous generations of Windows.
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  11. #211
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    DX11.1 is already only for Windows 8, and they've introduced a new WDDM with the OS, so it's almost guaranteed that any future version of DirectX will be Windows 8 and above only.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    DX11.1 is already only for Windows 8, and they've introduced a new WDDM with the OS, so it's almost guaranteed that any future version of DirectX will be Windows 8 and above only.
    I found a post somewhere that there will be no DX12, because the techonology is just obsolete or not worth the effort.

  13. #213
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    Ok. I've been using it for about 6 months now and I still think it's pretty great. Most of the 'issues' people have with it are total non-issues if you actually use it.

    I have run into TWO issues with it though (which i suspect may be related):

    1 - Metro apps seem to launch very slowly at times, and never speedily. For those others who have win8, how long does it take to launch the news app? It can take from 15 seconds to over a minute for me.

    2 - AFAIK older ATI mobile graphics cards have big problems with OpenGL. The only win8 graphics driver is the one from Microsoft, which seems to be bugged/missing OpenGL and doesn't look likely to get an update. Mobile graphics driver updates have always been a pain in the butt, but the solutions/patchers I know of don't work on win8.

    There may be a solution, but I couldn't find one in the limited amount of time i had to google the issue. So I can't play Frozen Synapse (and possibly other openGL games).

    So, if you have a laptop with an older ATI card then I recommend a little testing/research before upgrading to win8. Other that that, go for it if you want.

  14. #214
    Now I have some doubts about Win8. I'm used to WinXP and am not sure that the Win8 version will be much more useful for me. I've also heard it has some bugs that have not been resolved yet.
    Last edited by anton; 09-08-2013 at 09:48 AM.

  15. #215
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Hell if XP does what you need why upgrade?

  16. #216
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Ongoing security patches?

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