Women women women women.... ugh

[What.]

Two days since Walker's last diatribe, the Asses of Starcraft article came out. Which made me smile, so it's cool.

BUT IT ALSO MADE ME THINK!

There are a lot of completely unrealistic depictions of men in women's entertainment. Think of the sparkly dude from Twilight, or the dreamy doctor from any daytime soap, or that billionaire philanthropist male model with 10 inches in Fifty Shades of Grey.

I'm OK with the above, because they're vapid fantasies in media that panders to the lowest common denominator. Why should I be offended by it?

So now let us consider the inverse:
Hot chicks wearing highly impractical armour, with physics defying bosoms, and gratuitous ass shots all over the place. How is this any different? Why should we be offended by it?

Why are there people out there who feel it is their personal crusade to make me feel guilty for enjoying fantasy women in my fantasy entertainment?

If my above example is sexism, then how is playing any FPS not an example of sociopathy?

My final point; I play games all the time where I'm an impossible dude. Impossibly muscled, impossibly heroic, impossibly skilled, impossibly awesome. I'm OK with that. Why would a woman feel not OK when she plays as an impossible character?

What is the difference?

[sabrage]

I'm OK with the above, because they're vapid fantasies in media that panders to the lowest common denominator. Why should I be offended by it?

If the notion that banality is not just the norm but a veritable zeitgeist doesn't offend your sensibilities, I'm glad we'll never meet.

[What.]

If the notion that banality is not just the norm but a veritable zeitgeist doesn't offend your sensibilities, I'm glad we'll never meet.

We're talking about mass entertainment. When has banality not been it's most fitting defining characteristic?

You're putting gaming on a pedestal.

Hey, it's wonderful what that indie dev is doing, he's so clever and original! Next up: Call of Duty 37 and Grand Theft Auto 14.

I'm not too sure how that relates to anything I've said btw.

[sabrage]

We're talking about mass entertainment. When has banality not been it's most fitting defining characteristic?

I'm not too sure how that relates to anything I've said btw.

Do you want me to list the mass media that doesn't actively insult my intelligence, or will you take my word that it's out there?

[What.]

Do you want me to list the mass media that doesn't actively insult my intelligence, or will you take my word that it's out there?

I'm still not sure what you're trying to bring to this debate. Are you saying that there are major releases that contain well written stories and characters?

Well yes, I'm going to have to agree with you on that one.

[sabrage]

Then why settle? You yourself admit that such portrayals are "disgusting," so why settle for tacit complicity in their continued existence?

This isn't really an issue of sexism for me so much as aesthetic sensibility.

[What.]

sabrage, drop the thesaurus and work on your logic and comprehension.

Everything you've said so far has literally nothing to do with my original post.

[sabrage]

Excuse me for not pandering to your level; you get plenty of that elsewhere. You're asking why these things should offend you? Because they are the degradation of a forward-moving and intelligent society. It has everything to do with your post.

[What.]

Excuse me for not pandering to your level; you get plenty of that elsewhere. You're asking why these things should offend you? Because they are the degradation of a forward-moving and intelligent society. It has everything to do with your post.

Do you know what aesthetic sensibility means?

[sabrage]

Do you know what art is?

[What.]

Do you know what it means to know something?

[lordcooper]

Do you know Jimmy Page?

[Mentalepsy]

my fantasy entertainment

Well, that little word there is actually the problem. What makes it yours, or men's in general? I'm also a male gamer, and I don't see it that way.

I play games all the time where I'm an impossible dude. Impossibly muscled, impossibly heroic, impossibly skilled, impossibly awesome. I'm OK with that. Why would a woman feel not OK when she plays as an impossible character?

What is the difference?

Women like to play as impossibly awesome and skilled and heroic characters, too. The problem is that many of these characters are designed less as awesome characters for women to play and more as awesome* characters for men to gawk at.

Imagine extracting some embarrassingly sexual male character from some random girl-porn and making that your character. Your badass medieval warrior or space marine would go into battle in a tiny metal thong, while his female counterparts are fully armored (because "it's fantasy, it doesn't have to make sense"). His impeccably oiled chest and ass are the focus of every cutscene. Half of his dialogue is sexual innuendo, especially when speaking to other men. And of course, even though he's supposed to be the hero of the story, he repeatedly gets into serious trouble and has to be rescued by the lead female.

OK, so the game's not for you, it's women's fantasy**. That's cool. Hell, it might even be funny once or twice - I might get a kick out of it, I have to admit - but after that, you can just move on to something else that's intended for men. Well, as it turns out, many if not most games don't let you play as a male character at all, and of the ones that do, most of them are exactly like that. Your armor in Everquest only covers your shoulders, leaving your heaving pecs and six-pack abs exposed. Batman wears a sequined bat-thong and little else. Instead of holding things over his head, Link lasciviously sucks his finger and purrs "mmm... nice chest" when he opens a treasure box. Tex Murphy is described on the box as "an empowered and independent male detective," so he keeps his clothes on, but he's always in tight, low-cut jeans with his top four shirt buttons undone, the camera repeatedly pans over his bulging crotch in the opening movie, and we get at least two long, adoring shower scenes with him before the end of the game.

In cases like these, you may be playing the hero, but those heroes weren't really meant for you. Wouldn't you get tired of seeing the same female-pandering bullshit over and over, regardless of setting, context, genre, or character? Would you just give up and quit playing games, because games are apparently for women? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd say "Hey, can we maybe have this same game without my character being a half-naked buffoon?"

It's not limited to in-game, either. Wherever you go on the internet, you see games advertised with men in their underwear caressing their nipple, or soaking wet, or fawning over some badass (and fully-clothed) female, or draped over another mostly-naked man.

I'm all in favor of salacious entertainment for both men and women, but it isn't sensible or appropriate in every game, or even in most games. Even if it weren't a question of inclusion, even if straight men were now and forever the only gamers that could exist, I still wouldn't want nearly as much pointless cheesecake as we get. There's nothing wrong with a little (even-handed) sex appeal, but the industry tends to way overshoot that and land in the territory of blatant pandering. It's actually insulting at times, like the Evony ads or (mildly NSFW) this stupid shit.

Last thing - I noticed that you only mentioned books and films as examples of women's entertainment - what are examples of women's games? Since you mentioned the Starcraft 2 article, if a woman gets tired of looking at Kerrigan's bizarrely accentuated butt, what real-time strategy would you recommend that she play instead for some brain-rotting man-candy? What's an RTS that you have no interest in, because it was clearly marketed very sexually towards women?

* I quite frequently don't find it awesome
** I'm just making this shit up, I don't actually know what marketing directors think women fantasize about

[Dead Herald]

Honestly, you know how many people actually care that you're offended? None.

Come back when you have real problems.

[Nalano]

If my above example is sexism, then how is playing any FPS not an example of sociopathy?

Who says it isn't?

I'm gonna rape the shit outta that nigger cunt fag for camping my spawn!

[Vakir]

When men are put up as having "role models" that have unscalable expectations, it is usually to empower the male consumer with a fantasy. Doing it for female viewers/readers/whatever is usually...freakin' tertiary at best.

On the other hand, the females that are put up in the weird scantily clad armor usually doesn't get empowered in the same level, or if they are, it's usually to a certain extent and they are still sexualized enough where the sole purpose they are "impossible" is for the titillation of the male.

[Nalano]

I'm sure plenty of women were thinking, "man, should I ever be tortured and assimilated into a giant alien insectoid hivemind, I certainly hope my ass will look bangin'."

[Lorien]

I'm sure plenty of women were thinking, "man, should I ever be tortured and assimilated into a giant alien insectoid hivemind, I certainly hope my ass will look bangin'."

I know that's always my number one concern.

[deadlyhabit]

Do you know what art is?

Do you, because art panders to no one, but its creator's whims. Art doesn't care if it offends, sometimes it intentionally does.
Devaluing one creative work or demanding it panders to a certain demographic because it offends someone is the antithesis of what art is.
It's the whole why in a creative field do my rights end where your feelings begin?

[vagabond]

Imagine extracting some embarrassingly sexual male character from some random girl-porn.

I think part of where this falls down is that on the whole men are more visually stimulated than women, and so things that are pandering to men are immediately obvious as such. While I accept that there is way less gaming stuff that panders to women, it's not as easily found via google image search, nor is it easy to transpose into your thought experiment, since based on my searches for "most attractive male video game character" it seems that women (or at least whoever is putting these articles together) are attracted to the character's personality more than their body. Obviously they still need to be attractive, but I don't think a game that is pandering to women would be full of oiled dudes in thongs, It's more likely that every non main character would be some sort of loveable rogue with a heart of gold or something.

Part of the issue for me is that I don't really get what women sometimes find attractive. I can look at some actors/characters and even though I don't find them attractive I understand intellectually what it is about them that is, but sometimes I'm just baffled. Take Edward Cullen/Robert Patterson. I don't get it. His face looks blocky and slightly deformed to my eye.
Sometimes I think that I could play a game that panders to women and not even notice.

OK, so the game's not for you, it's women's fantasy**. That's cool. Hell, it might even be funny once or twice

I think it would be. In my searches for hot male characters I came across Dante from one of the DMC games who is wearing a leather jacket with nothing underneath and the front open showing off his chest. It's the closest thing to your theoretical example I've come across. It's vaguely impractical (mmm, sweat on leather, comfy) and just serves to shows off his fine, fine abs, but really I just find it slightly amusing. It raises a wry smile and then I move on.

- I might get a kick out of it, I have to admit - but after that, you can just move on to something else that's intended for men. Well, as it turns out, many if not most games don't let you play as a male character at all, and of the ones that do, most of them are exactly like that. Your armor in Everquest only covers your shoulders, leaving your heaving pecs and six-pack abs exposed. Batman wears a sequined bat-thong and little else. Instead of holding things over his head, Link lasciviously sucks his finger and purrs "mmm... nice chest" when he opens a treasure box.

Again though, would women actually find that sexy or is it just faintly ridiculuous? (Is it both?)

Tex Murphy is described on the box as "an empowered and independent male detective," so he keeps his clothes on, but he's always in tight, low-cut jeans with his top four shirt buttons undone, the camera repeatedly pans over his bulging crotch in the opening movie, and we get at least two long, adoring shower scenes with him before the end of the game.

Sweet. I wish I could rock the tight jeans and mostly undone shirt in real life. A bit too fat sadly.

When I'm given a character creator that lets me recreate myself, what I create is usually a thinner and more muscular version of myself, because that's what I'd like to look like. Not because I'd like to be more powerful, but because I'd like to be more attractive. In hindsight, maybe I should give up the diet and work on my roguish qualities, but those are my motivations.

If women don't want to play someone thinner than themselves with bigger breasts because they don't think the same way as I do, fine, but I honestly don't know if they do or not, or maybe there is some minority that find it objectionable while the majority are quite happy to do so, or some other more convoluted situation that isn't really helped by cries of "ban this sick filth".

In cases like these, you may be playing the hero, but those heroes weren't really meant for you. Wouldn't you get tired of seeing the same female-pandering bullshit over and over, regardless of setting, context, genre, or character? Would you just give up and quit playing games, because games are apparently for women? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd say "Hey, can we maybe have this same game without my character being a half-naked buffoon?"

Maybe. Hard to say what I'd put up with to still be able to play games unless I experienced it, but I'm still putting up with stupid DRM, always online, microtransactions, and all sorts of other anti consumer crap and it hasn't stopped me yet...

Here we also start to brush up against some logical inconsitancies.
If there is an all pervasive anti-female environment scaring off women, how come 50% of gamers are women?
(according to the supporting material in John's post)

Last thing - I noticed that you only mentioned books and films as examples of women's entertainment - what are examples of women's games? Since you mentioned the Starcraft 2 article, if a woman gets tired of looking at Kerrigan's bizarrely accentuated butt, what real-time strategy would you recommend that she play instead for some brain-rotting man-candy? What's an RTS that you have no interest in, because it was clearly marketed very sexually towards women?

Of course there isn't one, but based on what the majority of women seem to consume in other media (in terms of romance novels/chick flicks) I'm not sure that the RTS as a genre is ever really going to be a coherent vehicle for what they're looking for. Then again, who knows, maybe Company of Heroes is full of chisel jawed men in uniform that were busy pushing buttons and I didn't notice.