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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kelron's Avatar
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    But it's America and they are killing Bad People.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kataras View Post
    I think the problem is that non-Americans judge the candidates based on foreign policy, while Americans (understandably) choose more or less based on internal policies. I can understand that Obama is the lesser of two evils (that is if you accept the idea that there are only 2 choices) but I cannot get my head around all the celebrations for a man who, to all intents and purposes, takes an active part in extra-judiciary assassinations of foreign nationals (or criminals or whatever you want to call them) through drones... If this was any other head of state (imagine Iran's),everyone would be screaming 'violations of human rights' etc.
    What human rights? Or did you not notice that people kill each other all the time? It's just not cool when a drone does it then?

    This is not new American policy, we've been doing the same thing with cruise missiles and special forces insertions for decades.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kataras View Post
    I think the problem is that non-Americans judge the candidates based on foreign policy, while Americans (understandably) choose more or less based on internal policies. I can understand that Obama is the lesser of two evils (that is if you accept the idea that there are only 2 choices) but I cannot get my head around all the celebrations for a man who, to all intents and purposes, takes an active part in extra-judiciary assassinations of foreign nationals (or criminals or whatever you want to call them) through drones... If this was any other head of state (imagine Iran's),everyone would be screaming 'violations of human rights' etc.
    "Fuck you Americans! Uncultured, crass Americans! We hate all of you! Fu- the Germans are here! Hello Americans! We love you!"
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  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    "Fuck you Americans! Uncultured, crass Americans! We hate all of you! Fu- the Germans are here! Hello Americans! We love you!"
    You used to be so cool in the Second World War :(.

    The cold war... changed you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic
    What human rights? Or did you not notice that people kill each other all the time? It's just not cool when a drone does it then?
    I think the main issue with drones is that the airstrikes are not called in by people who are actually on the ground. Civilian casualties ensue.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    You used to be so cool in the Second World War :(.

    The cold war... changed you.



    I think the main issue with drones is that the airstrikes are not called in by people who are actually on the ground. Civilian casualties ensue.
    Drones are controlled by a pilot on the ground.

    We don't have autonomous robots flying around dropping bombs on people, this isn't a terminator film.. yet.

    As for the cold war, Europe was involved in that as well.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Drones are controlled by a pilot on the ground.

    We don't have autonomous robots flying around dropping bombs on people, this isn't a terminator film.. yet.
    And that pilot is located in Afghanistan or even in the US, kilometers away from the target he is going to bomb - The target aquisition is also done by someone who just looks at aerial photos or videos - and thus, mistakes are made, quite commonly.

    As for the cold war, Europe was involved in that as well.
    I know, and ... wait. Please don't call the European continent "europe". This continent does not have a centralized goverment like that yet. However, many european countries have been involved in many of the more... questionable stuff going on, such as Vietnam (However, there quite a few countries that were not).

    That does not mean they shouldn't be called out on it, and that does not mean that the USA should not be called out on their questionable ethics when it comes to foreign policy.

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Drones are controlled by a pilot on the ground.
    Possibly several thousand miles away from where it's all happening though, which is kind of Grizzly's point.
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  8. #48
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    I'd like to thank my fellow Americans who helped pass initiatives to legalize marijuana and gay marriage in select states, and who opposed extremist candidates like Akin and Mourdock. Now if only old white guys would stop voting for old white guys en masse...

  9. #49
    Lesser Hivemind Node Wheelz's Avatar
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    holy shit, that video was amazing Squirrel!

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    And that pilot is located in Afghanistan or even in the US, kilometers away from the target he is going to bomb - The target aquisition is also done by someone who just looks at aerial photos or videos - and thus, mistakes are made, quite commonly.
    The only way to perfect target acquisition without any loss of innocent life is not to attack at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    You used to be so cool in the Second World War :(.

    The cold war... changed you.
    Says somebody from a region that's grown complacent with letting their collective defense and international intervention largely be handled by... us.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  11. #51
    Lesser Hivemind Node Labbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The only way to perfect target acquisition without any loss of innocent life is not to attack at all.
    I have no idea how much this was reported on internationally, but the Germans bombed an oil truck in Afghanistan, killing lots of civilians. It cost the two highest ranking members of the army their jobs, and that wasn't even a drone strike.
    The reality of war means that targetting will never be done by the pilot, so whether or not you use drones only matters in quantity. At least for me, it has no worse moral implications than bombing, for instance.
    Edit: I should probably add that I'd like to see bombing of places with "suspected terrorists" not happening at all.
    Last edited by Labbes; 09-11-2012 at 12:22 AM.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlesticks View Post
    I've asked a few libertarians what they actually desired and the only consistent answer I got was more freedom. Which is such an amazingly vague term that you might as well not even bother.
    Guns, drugs and whores, basically.
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  13. #53
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Guns, drugs and whores, basically.
    Also no taxes. Sorry, I mean "government thugs stealing your money at gunpoint".

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The only way to perfect target acquisition without any loss of innocent life is not to attack at all.
    That does not mean one can try and improve. I kind of dislike the "shoot first, and fuck all" attitude that seem to be standard with these drone strikes.

    Says somebody from a region that's grown complacent with letting their collective defense and international intervention largely be handled by... us.
    I am still unsure whether it is our politicians which do too little, or the American politicians which do too much. I am, however, leaning towards the latter.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    That does not mean one can try and improve. I kind of dislike the "shoot first, and fuck all" attitude that seem to be standard with these drone strikes.
    You think the Taliban would cut you some slack?
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  16. #56
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    Is there no difference between the Taliban and the American forces?

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You think the Taliban would cut you some slack?
    He who fights monsters...

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    "Fuck you Americans! Uncultured, crass Americans! We hate all of you! Fu- the Germans are here! Hello Americans! We love you!"
    This is wrong on so many levels I m not even gonna start.

    I m sorry if US foreign policy is unpopular outside of the US, but well it is. However this was not an attack on all Americans, it's just something that I was genuinely thinking about during the elections.

    @Hypernetic: what human right? Maybe this: 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person.' I know in war people die, but this is not a normal war, it's government-sanctioned assassination. My problem is that Obama has made it 'cool', it's not a covert op anymore, it's something mainstream now and you can read about it in the papers.

    My primary problem with all this though (apart from the collateral damage etc), is why someone should have the right to decide who lives and who dies (whether by cruise missile/drone/helicopter attack or whatever) and that his person and his staff are accountable to no one basically. We don't know how they make the decisions, how they compile their lists etc etc. For a country that has gone to war so many times 'to spread democracy and human rights', I think it's hugely problematic.

    @Kadayi: who funded the Taliban in the '80's when they were fighting against Russia?

  19. #59
    Network Hub Maknol's Avatar
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    Just a heads up, I can't say if it's the same worldwide, but hardly anyone that I know here in Brazil believes in the rhetoric that the US is invading other countries to "liberate" them or to "spread democracy, fight injustice and be a paladin of love and rainbows to make the world a better place". I'm quite surprised whenever I see an American who believes that, really. This bravado of acting like they're the world police really harms the country's image.

    That said, I'm glad Obama won. He's far from perfect, the democratic party in general is a band of wussies who get slapped around by the crazy extremists on the republican side... but they're still the lesser of two evils. And if the republicans had won, our own presidential elections in 2014 would be that much worse. Our conservative candidates mimicked much of the worst parts of the 2008 republican campaign in 2010, leading to one of the most despicable campaigns in our recent history. If Mitt "I am the 1%" Romney's tactics had worked, this would be even worse the next time.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Both sides always say if the other is elected, it will be the end of the world. Though I do think if Romney had come to power, it would have been a big step backwards.

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