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  1. #81
    Obscure Node lordpiggsworth's Avatar
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    My point being you're flitting between targetting one group of consumers and another. One minute you say everything should be in a box on a shelf like an Apple product, the next you're saying those people would be wanting to overclock their systems to run a set of user-generated graphics improvement mods for games? Buh? If those people are already into modding games, why aren't they building their own computers? So that's my main point, you're really not being clear with which kind of consumer you're wishing to target. Also I'm failing to see the link between the high res graphics mods and "independently produced content" which requires overclocking.

    If you just want to play vanilla games and browse youtube, why not just switch to a PS3 or an xbox360?
    So now anyone who doesn't want to mod their games is some "vanilla" user whom might aswell just be relegated to the under-the-telly box? I mean, the Farmville thing was a joke because honestly anyone whom is playing "vanilla" games is doing it already because they know their way around a PC and so the only potential market I can see you going for is the "casual" gamer demographic but I think they've already spent all their money on Apple products anyway...

    The way I see it is this: there are two main types of consumer, the savvy and the not so savvy. Savvy ones will read reviews and shop around because they value being in control of their purchases and getting exactly what they want. Not so savvy are just looking for something convenient and easy to fill their needs. Products catering to the latter are, generally, more expensive if the user wishes to get the same experience as an informed customer without taking the time to do the work themselves. See also: Alienware. Massively overpriced PCs which you could build for way less, but marketed as a complete package for a "gamer" to get going with immediately after they plug it in. It's like you're trying to aim for the best of both worlds without realising that marketing is about finding out what the consumer wants rather than speculating about what you think would be best for them.

    EDIT: I don't supposed you have a link for system requirements for ENBSeries mods, do you?
    Last edited by lordpiggsworth; 15-11-2012 at 02:02 PM.

  2. #82
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Absolutely not.

    Because this is the "walled garden" so many people are afraid Microsoft is already working on with Windows 8. What some people don't understand when they jump for Macs is they're giving up customization and the ability to open the hood and tinker with settings at a whim. Obviously this isn't for everyone, but it's an option that I simply won't have taken from me. But more importantly is the control of what software they're allowed to use they give up.

    Not all free apps for Windows are just hobbled versions of retail software. There is a free version of just about everything that works almost as good, if not just as good as ones you have to pay for. The reason for this is because Microsoft doesn't make apps on demand - someone else sees the need and fills it in with their solution (either free or retail). Apple doesn't make those apps out of goodwill towards their customers, but because they want to keep total control over their product. There's an unwritten agreement whenever you buy an Apple product that you will use it only the way its creators intended. If you want any more functionality you have to ask them and then pay for it.

    Remember what happened iPhone? If you unlocked one from AT&T to use with any carrier of your choice your phone was bricked. And third party apps? There's a reason those are rare.

    http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2007/10/...ed-the-iphone/

    The entire point of a walled garden is control, not giving the customer what they want. It's already an abominable concept, but asking me to pay for it on top of that?
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  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Absolutely not.

    Because this is the "walled garden" so many people are afraid Microsoft is already working on with Windows 8.
    I think you're having trouble grasping my concept, maybe I'm not great at structuring my ideas clearly. I'll repeat this one last time, it's impossible to turn the PC platform into a walled garden. So your whole premise s based on something that you misunderstood in my OP. So I'll leave it to you to elaborate on what it is.

    EDIT: Ah, I see where the confusion occurs! Ok, so I mentioned an idea for this service that offers pre-configured downloads for a bunch of things (games, mods, emulators, apps etc.).
    I also mentioned that the further away you deviate from the base PC hardware configurations, the more manual tweaking you have to do to get the downloads working properly.

    So switching ram or hard disks usually would have no effect, but switching cpus or gpus probably would result in an impact.

    Well, isn't that what power users do anyway??
    In the end, if you want to customise your PC there is absolutely no solution that will always automatically fit your system - it's up to you to make things work at the best possible settings (keep in mind I'm referring to mods, emulators and the like - not commercial games). The only advantage for a power user / overclocker in this scenario would be the wealth of information presented to them on the offered hardware: they would know how well the base configurations perform through exhaustive benchmark and thermal performance results. If they feel they can do better, at least they have a good set of resources to compare with.
    This is actually quite significant in it's own right - new hardware is usually shrouded by PR and hearsay when it comes to concrete performance and thermal levels. This is all for overclockers of course.
    Last edited by mashakos; 15-11-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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  4. #84
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordpiggsworth View Post
    My point being you're flitting between targetting one group of consumers and another.
    not really:

    1) build an overclocked, balanced PC
    2) set up and configure a tuned OS
    3) Give this tuned and overclocked PC to consumer to use as they please
    4) Give consumer a URL to a network that has a bunch of free stuff related to modding, emulation, utilities, home theater stuff etc.

    It's pretty simple tbh. Whether the user is casual, a general gamer or a tinkerer, they are given a good starting point for them to work with.
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  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    not really:

    1) build an overclocked, balanced PC
    2) set up and configure a tuned OS
    3) Give this tuned and overclocked PC to consumer to use as they please
    4) Give consumer a URL to a network that has a bunch of free stuff related to modding, emulation, utilities, home theater stuff etc.

    It's pretty simple tbh. Whether the user is casual, a general gamer or a tinkerer, they are given a good starting point for them to work with.
    First you complained there were no such services.

    There are.

    Then you complained that they had too many choices.

    They don't.

    Then you complained that they had too few choices.

    They clearly don't.

    Then you complained that they're too complicated.

    If the end-user cares about overclocking, then they're exactly as complicated as they need to be.

    Now you're complaining that they cost too much.
    Services cost money​.
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  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    First you complained there were no such services.

    There are.
    there aren't. You're out the door once you pay for that PC: no ongoing content or value added features after that. Unless I'm missing something or you don't get what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Then you complained that they had too many choices.

    They don't.
    wrong again. I pointed out that the choices presented were unbalanced. There is a difference between unbalanced and too many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Then you complained that they had too few choices.

    They clearly don't.

    Then you complained that they're too complicated.
    you lost me there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Now you're complaining that they cost too much.
    Services cost money​.
    selling a cooling system for $3000, that's not a service. That's overpricing.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    not really:

    1) build an overclocked, balanced PC
    2) set up and configure a tuned OS
    3) Give this tuned and overclocked PC to consumer to use as they please
    4) Give consumer a URL to a network that has a bunch of free stuff related to modding, emulation, utilities, home theater stuff etc.

    It's pretty simple tbh. Whether the user is casual, a general gamer or a tinkerer, they are given a good starting point for them to work with.
    1) boutique builder
    2) What is considered tuned? Tuned for what? You can tune your PC a million different ways. I am sure the PC is tuned already to run to high efficiency from a boutique builder.
    3) You buy it, you can do whatever you want with it.
    4) Google is your friend. Forums and fan sites are also. Giving a URL to a casual user would be the most confusing thing ever. We already have the best casual mod service, in Steam Workshop. Not every game uses it but more are and makes its simple as hell to mod the game. And if you are modding ini and files, then we are past casual.

    No builder that hopes to grow will promote emulators.

  8. #88
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    Most of those things aren't worthy of the extra money as they are already done elsewhere for free (if less personally). I would say no, though I like the idea of a PC console. Something with readily accessible parts and a very simplistic hardware installation. Each element is modular, so as it ages you can just buy a new part to increase your performance. Yeah, PC gaming is already this to some degree, but it's not exactly user friendly for the average non-PC geek.

  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liudeius View Post
    Most of those things aren't worthy of the extra money as they are already done elsewhere for free (if less personally).
    not following you here. What extra money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    2) What is considered tuned? Tuned for what? You can tune your PC a million different ways. I am sure the PC is tuned already to run to high efficiency from a boutique builder.
    good point, win7 doesn't really need tuning. What I meant was "more user friendly tweaking". So things like:
    1. installing and configuring a codec pack for native mkv,mp4,mov,avi,ts support as well as intelligent subtitle detection (that needs a bit of time to tweak).
    2. adding a few convenience utilities that can be utilised by custom automated software provided by the manufacturer. Apps like Core Affinity Resident, ShellFolderFix, NTCore's 4GB Patch and Link Shell Extension
    3. installing psd,tga codecs so you can view photoshop and targa files in windows photo viewer or paint. Also thumbnails ould be visible for these file types

    there are hundreds of similiar tweaks that can make win7 better but not bog down the system like OEMs' constantly running "multimedia" bundled apps that take up memory and cpu cycles.
    Last edited by mashakos; 15-11-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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  10. #90
    Obscure Node lordpiggsworth's Avatar
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    That's how services get priced for customisation. The price coming from them being put together to different specifications rather than a set build which could be churned out on a factory line. I'd consider it perfectly reasonable for a custom build gaming rig which was up and ready with all the latest drivers and such to cost upwards of £1600 depending on what parts were used. Yeah, I could do it myself for £1000 but you pay for not having the hairy moments of dealing with those misleadingly-named Zero Insertion Force slots and finding out you mucked up the jumper settings and have to start again.

    I'm honestly now thinking that Alienware do something like this and I've seen they have a place where users can register for a customer support zone and the site has links to drivers and such. I can see a bit clearer what you're getting at now in that you're theorising a company whom build custom PCs to a user's specifications then offer a level of service after purchase to enable the user to do more stuff and... I dunno, pretend they were always One Of Us or something. I still think that there isn't actually a viable target group for this due to how muddied the prospective aims of the business have become.

    Also wouldn't this network of utilities all in one place need to, I dunno, be hosted and maintained? Which would cost money?

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how many people would want an OCed and tweaked PC that was OCed and tweaked by someone else.

    Personally, overclocking isn't really about getting better performance... it's about fiddling around with my PC. Letting someone else do it takes the fun out of it.

    So for someone like me that pre-OCed, tuned PC is not a good starting point at all, it's already been done. It's like I'm a painter and I buy my canvases with paint by number, or worse- already painted.

    But I don't know, I'm hardly your average consumer. Perhaps there is a market for such a thing.

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    I'm not sure how many people would want an OCed and tweaked PC that was OCed and tweaked by someone else.

    Personally, overclocking isn't really about getting better performance... it's about fiddling around with my PC. Letting someone else do it takes the fun out of it.

    So for someone like me that pre-OCed, tuned PC is not a good starting point at all, it's already been done. It's like I'm a painter and I buy my canvases with paint by number, or worse- already painted.

    But I don't know, I'm hardly your average consumer. Perhaps there is a market for such a thing.
    overclocking can be very expensive if you make the wrong choices. I'm not referring to burnt hardware, I'm referring to buying the wrong kind of hardware. It works but can't be overclocked for sh*t. So you end up stuck with a bunch of hardware you can't return sinc there's nothing wrong with it. You either forget about overclocking or you try again and buy yet another set of cpu, ram and motherboard. This stuff is painful for those starting out with overclocking - usually college students with very little cash and not a lot of leg room to make these kinds of mistakes.

    Again, this is in the realm of serious overclocking - 1ghz increases and up - and not this kiddie overclocking I'm seeing nowadays.
    "look! I overclocked my core i3 from 3.0Ghz to 3.4Ghz using autotune O/C :D :D :D "
    Last edited by mashakos; 15-11-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Sure but if you're OCing yourself you would probably know a lot more about the dangers than if you just bought it pre-OCed. If I'm the type of consumer who doesn't want to OC my machine, I'd probably rather buy a more stable faster system than a pre-OCed system... of course I guess you could sell the most top-of-the-line machine that's OCed on top of that, but this gets very expensive for the target audience of college students with little cash.

    It just seems like the most likely audience for this would be hobbyists who prefer the fun of tweaking on their own.

  14. #94
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    of course I guess you could sell the most top-of-the-line machine that's OCed on top of that, but this gets very expensive for the target audience of college students with little cash.
    the beauty of oc'ing is that mid-range hardware can be pushed to run high end software. A good target for the college age crowd would be an overclocked mid-range PC in the $900 - $1000 price bracket. Most aren't going to pay completely from their pocket in the end, parents usually help out with computer purchases. How else would college kids afford 15" Macbook Pro's? O.o
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  15. #95
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Well that's not the "college student with very little cash" you were targeting earlier. If mommy buys them new stuff why not just OC your own and have mommy buy a new one if it melts? I don't see where the market for this would be. And for $900-$1000 why buy an OCed mid range and not just a real $1000 machine?

  16. #96
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    Well that's not the "college student with very little cash" you were targeting earlier. If mommy buys them new stuff why not just OC your own and have mommy buy a new one if it melts?
    is that how it works? maybe. Usually parents pitch in on important educational stuff right? At least that's how it is for everyone I know.
    Either way i'm sure it would be embarrassing to the kid!


    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    And for $900-$1000 why buy an OCed mid range and not just a real $1000 machine?
    that's a good question :)
    because a dual core overclocked to 4Ghz will trounce a quad core running at 3Ghz. Same goes for quad core and hexa core. Overclocking makes a huge difference after a certain threshold is passed, not only is speed increased but memory bandwidth as well. Back in the core 2 days, my mid-range core 2 cpu was overclocked with a front side bus speed of 2Ghz. Compare that to the Core 2 Quad's 1333Mhz.
    Translation: a properly overclocked mid-range system will outperform a higher end stock system.
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  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Perhaps, but maybe there will come a time when multi-threading is more common and exploited fully where those extra cores will make a difference? I don't know.

    I'll bow out. Personally I wouldn't consider buying this, but the same can be said about iPhones and SUVs and those have huge markets, so what do I know

    edit: one more thing though- you could buy the non-OCed $1000 machine with room for future OCing... that mid range pre-OCed is already there, so in the future you're already maxed out without upgrading. But right, that's probably not the mindset of the consumer who would buy this.
    Last edited by Sparkasaurusmex; 15-11-2012 at 03:56 PM.

  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    edit: one more thing though- you could buy the non-OCed $1000 machine with room for future OCing... that mid range pre-OCed is already there, so in the future you're already maxed out without upgrading. But right, that's probably not the mindset of the consumer who would buy this.
    on the other hand, there's no guarantee that the $1000 can be overclocked at all.
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  19. #99
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    selling a cooling system for $3000, that's not a service. That's overpricing.
    I dunno if you're being daft on purpose, or if you actually thought you could fool me by maxing out hardware for the sole purpose of complaining about price.

    Either way, this is not helping you: You're willfully blind to the options available, your ideas - as confused as they are - have no market, and you're vacillating horribly between "I want all the options" and "I want a My First Computer," where everything is custom built for cost.
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  20. #100
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I dunno if you're being daft on purpose, or if you actually thought you could fool me by maxing out hardware for the sole purpose of complaining about price.

    Either way, this is not helping you: You're willfully blind to the options available, your ideas - as confused as they are - have no market, and you're vacillating horribly between "I want all the options" and "I want a My First Computer," where everything is custom built for cost.
    please read links and posts properly in the future:
    ...
    Origin (is) showing off its new Phase Change cooling technology, which enables the Genesis desktop to be overclocked to 5.7GHz, and which pushes that desktop's starting price from $1,337 to $4,499. So how does that $3,000 feature work? ...
    http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/11/a...system-and-it/
    why am I spoon feeding you? Grow up.
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