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  1. #101
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    I think you're having trouble grasping my concept, maybe I'm not great at structuring my ideas clearly. I'll repeat this one last time, it's impossible to turn the PC platform into a walled garden.
    No, it's not. Apple has already proven that. They've even gone as far to prevent their desktop OSs from working on anything but specific hardware.


    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    EDIT: Ah, I see where the confusion occurs! Ok, so I mentioned an idea for this service that offers pre-configured downloads for a bunch of things (games, mods, emulators, apps etc.).
    I also mentioned that the further away you deviate from the base PC hardware configurations, the more manual tweaking you have to do to get the downloads working properly.
    That would defeat the entire purpose of modding wouldn't it? Modding is actual everyday users changing things themselves. If it's something the manufacturer/developer offers themselves then it's not a mod. It's either a different model of the product or different program. I don't understand how you could call buying such pre-fabricated software modding. Nearly all of modding is people taking things and making them work in ways the original creators didn't intend.


    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    In the end, if you want to customize your PC there is absolutely no solution that will always automatically fit your system - it's up to you to make things work at the best possible settings (keep in mind I'm referring to mods, emulators and the like - not commercial games). The only advantage for a power user / overclocker in this scenario would be the wealth of information presented to them on the offered hardware: they would know how well the base configurations perform through exhaustive benchmark and thermal performance results. If they feel they can do better, at least they have a good set of resources to compare with.
    Why would we need to buy pre-made software for that when we can already do it now with free? Is it just convenience you're paying for? I don't see how a system you're proposing offers any advantage over what we have now other than that. And the only other possible uses for it are destructive to the PC community in general for reasons Apple already demonstrates.
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  2. #102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    No, it's not. Apple has already proven that. They've even gone as far to prevent their desktop OSs from working on anything but specific hardware.
    Apple has already proven that... by building their own operating system and EFI (bios). Not that simple btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    That would defeat the entire purpose of modding wouldn't it? Modding is actual everyday users changing things themselves. If it's something the manufacturer/developer offers themselves then it's not a mod. It's either a different model of the product or different program. I don't understand how you could call buying such pre-fabricated software modding. Nearly all of modding is people taking things and making them work in ways the original creators didn't intend.
    you are confusing hardware mods which are a DIY hobby with game mods which are created by amateur developers and artists for general consumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Why would we need to buy pre-made software for that when we can already do it now with free?
    Why indeed. You need to read through this thread again, and get back to me on this purchasing of software bit.
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  3. #103
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    After mulling it over, I wouldn't buy a "box" computer ala Macs.

    I'd possibly buy a premade one like Nal linked earlier and possibly have it OCd for me.

    And I'd probably pay someone to handle the OC'ing of my current computer with all my parts in it, to handle things like PS2 emulation and ENBseries injections.

  4. #104
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    Apple has already proven that... by building their own operating system and EFI (bios). Not that simple btw.
    ...Which is in fact a PC inside a walled garden. What are you trying to argue against here exactly? Are you just arguing for the sake of it?


    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    you are confusing hardware mods which are a DIY hobby with game mods which are created by amateur developers and artists for general consumption.
    You were talking a lot about software in your opening post.

    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    As an example, for the equivalent of a current 24" iMac plus the added support package, you'd get a gaming PC and free subscription to a network that gives you:
    -the best settings for a huge library of games catered specifically for your PC model. The settings would be tweaked to give you the best framerates and later on the best balance between quality and performance once your PC model starts showing it's age (3-4 years down the line).
    -fixes for a huge library of games, compatibility fixes for games from previous generations
    -Articles on new game mods, and pre-configured mods to download - again catered specifically for your system. So you would just download and install, tweaking not necessary.
    -an online store for emulation gaming. That would include refurbished PS2,Wii,SNES etc. consoles to legally own BIOS, older titles from PS2,Wii,gamecube and others. An iso rip and emulator configuration come free with each game. Only games which work perfectly are included in the store.
    -An online store with hard to find or quirky PC hardware like, say a bluetooth adapter that supports keyboards in BIOS, or a LAN HDMI extender. Or even this remote for example if you're into home theater stuff.
    -An overclock profile that you can load directly into your motherboard with a guarantee that it will work perfectly with your PC model
    All those things bolded are software, not hardware-based.


    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    Why indeed. You need to read through this thread again, and get back to me on this purchasing of software bit.
    Your thread title:
    Would you pay extra for an easy PC gaming experience?

    You've basically just asked a question for which the answer is a resounding "No" but seem hell-bent on convincing me the answer's really yes. If you don't care for an answer that isn't just "Yes absolutely! I completely agree with you!" then unplug your network cable and do not use the internet ever again. It'll just make you angry and confused.
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  5. #105
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    ...Which is in fact a PC inside a walled garden. What are you trying to argue against here exactly? Are you just arguing for the sake of it?
    the point I was trying to hint at: you would need to write your own operating system to get the level of control Apple has that would facilitate a platform to become a walled garden. Which is obviously not possible for someone building Windows PCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    You were talking a lot about software in your opening post.
    free software

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Your thread title:
    Would you pay extra for an easy PC gaming experience?
    the "pay" in that question refers to the hardware only. Translate it to: would you pay for a quality build (with the added benefit of free configs an other things) or do your own build?
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  6. #106
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=mashakos;215747]the point I was trying to hint at: you would need to write your own operating system to get the level of control Apple has that would facilitate a platform to become a walled garden. Which is obviously not possible for someone building Windows PCs.

    If you're going to buy all your software from the manufacturer anyway, aren't you already putting yourself in a walled garden anyway? The reason people like Apple's walled garden is because it's so easy to understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    free software
    If you get it only by buying a specific item (in this case the computer) it's most definitely not free. It's just not extra.


    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    the "pay" in that question refers to the hardware only. Translate it to: would you pay for a quality build (with the added benefit of free configs an other things) or do your own build?
    My own because I know exactly what I'm getting, I'm free to change it whenever I please, and I can do with it whatever I please. The "free" configs are not free if you only get them included with something you have to pay for.
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  7. #107
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    If you're going to buy all your software from the manufacturer anyway, aren't you already putting yourself in a walled garden anyway? The reason people like Apple's walled garden is because it's so easy to understand.
    who the hell would go with that crazy strategy? lol
    EDIT: as a fledgling PC builder I mean

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    If you get it only by buying a specific item (in this case the computer) it's most definitely not free. It's just not extra.
    you get it for free, as a download link off an open, public website. No strings attached.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    My own because I know exactly what I'm getting, I'm free to change it whenever I please, and I can do with it whatever I please. The "free" configs are not free if you only get them included with something you have to pay for.
    fair enough.
    Last edited by mashakos; 15-11-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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  8. #108
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    My PC Gaming Experience is already sufficiently improved, so I would not pay a money.
    Support for my all-pepperjack-cheese food bank charity drive has been lukewarm at best.

  9. #109
    Obscure Node lordpiggsworth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    please read links and posts properly in the future:

    http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/11/a...system-and-it/
    why am I spoon feeding you? Grow up.
    Why are you purposefully looking for ridiculously overpriced systems and saying they're in any way marketable to a consumer? Fail to see why there's a need to resort to insults, either. From all I've read so far you've made a fair number of contradictions, perhaps unintentionally due to structure, relating to what you would actually like to achieve with this business model. You seem to be offering something too good to be true that flits between groups of consumers without catering to one in a kind of "jack of all trades, master of none" model which is, frankly, unsustainable due to the nature of the electronics market where ROI is crucial and any kind of gamble with demographics can lead to catastrophic failure.

    Oh and the PC format is impossible to turn into a walled garden? Windows 8 would like to have a word with you. It has some... Hidden agendas.

  10. #110
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordpiggsworth View Post
    Why are you purposefully looking for ridiculously overpriced systems and saying they're in any way marketable to a consumer?
    I did nothing of the sort. I was giving an example of how boutique PC builders overcharge their customers to an extreme degree for unique solutions. Another example is the thread I started about the Falcon Northwest Tiki. I meant the thread to be about the design of the PC itself but it devolved into an argument about overpricing precisely for this reason (if I remember correctly the Tiki started at $2500). Sure, a cooling solution that allows for a 5.7GHz overclock or a high end PC in a console form factor are amazing solutions, but when they are overpriced almost by a 100% markup it does become disgusting. I think there is an opportunity to provide unique solutions without charging $3000 or $4000 for a PC.

    Regarding build-to-order sites:
    The do-your-own-toppings site Nalano linked to offers a slightly reasonable PC but with the caveat that if you don't do your own research you will end up with a lemon. I pointed out that the base system he linked to was useless for overclocking yet had expensive hardware meant for oc enthusiasts. To get the right combination of components that offer true overclocking potential, the price doubled to $1600. Otherwise for $879 you get components (mainly the motherboard, PSU, RAM and cpu HSF) that don't have the headroom for overclocking, and you're left with a system that could be matched performance wise with a cheaper specced $700 machine.

    For some people, it's fun to google all the necessary background info on the latest PC architectures and the general concepts behind enthusiast PCs - which is evident from this thread. For this group of people build to order is great. For those who don't want their purchasing decision to be backed by 100's of hours of research, build to order sites are a potential disaster zone.
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  11. #111
    Obscure Node lordpiggsworth's Avatar
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    Well, yes, it was a ridiculous set-up from a boutique PC provider and as such I'm really not sure why you linked it. It seemed to be pretty much their "caviar dish" and as such not for a regular consumer but someone wishing to pay a premium for a premium product.

    I can see what you're saying with build-to-order sites offering these computers which don't offer much room for overclocking; but you aren't the consumer this is aimed at, right? I'm honestly unsure of what the overclocking scene is like these days but last I remember it was always a tech enthusiast pursuit where you were playing Russian roulette with your hardware. If the very premise of overclocking is that it's "at the user's risk" why would we be assuming that everyone would want to do it? If they're into overclocking anyway I sort of doubt they'd be getting someone to put their PC together for them.

  12. #112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordpiggsworth View Post
    If they're into overclocking anyway I sort of doubt they'd be getting someone to put their PC together for them.
    whether they're into it or not is irrelevant. The more important question is whether it becomes a requirement. For playing commercial games and day to day activities it's not, although it helps with performance dips when a PC hasn't been upgraded for two years or longer.
    For a few mods and most emulators however, it's a must. It is also very useful for cpu intensive tasks like generating rainbow tables or 3d rendering. There was a period o time before the core 2 era where a large group of users at CGSociety were helping each other overclock their Pentiums and Athlons. Believe me these people have no interest in overclocking for the sake of it, but they saw that it made an impact for some people and it caught on. Obviously after the core 2 cpus were powerful enough where stock was acceptable again for vray and their other needs.

    So yeah, an overclocked system can show a significant demonstrable performance increase where emulators and heavy game mods are concerned when compared with a similiarly specced stock system.
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  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordpiggsworth View Post
    If the very premise of overclocking is that it's "at the user's risk" why would we be assuming that everyone would want to do it?
    Because it's EXTREEEEEEEEEEM

    Seriously. This is beginning to read like a desire to "just purchase X to get your Gamer Cred." Somebody heard that overclocking is what the cool kids do, and wonders where he could buy a piece 'a that.

    Sorta like wanting to roll into a car enthusiast's meet with a sweet Challenger that you bought knowing absolutely nothing about pony cars.
    Last edited by Nalano; 15-11-2012 at 08:41 PM.
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  14. #114
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Because it's EXTREEEEEEEEEEM

    Seriously. This is beginning to read like a desire to "just purchase X to get your Gamer Cred." Somebody heard that overclocking is what the cool kids do, and wonders where he could buy a piece 'a that.

    Sorta like wanting to roll into a car enthusiast's meet with a sweet Challenger that you bought knowing absolutely nothing about pony cars.
    that's ... a bit too cynical. In any case, try one of those open world enbseries mods on a machine that's on stock. Report back, if you want.
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  15. #115
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    Graphics fidelity is already overreaching peoples visual ability to distinguish the difference. It's there, but it's not enough to drive sales. Sales are what you need.

    Besides, I think the best thing for you would be to give reviews/commentaries or advice. Remember, reviews and commentaries are entirely OPINION so you can do what you wish, call it entertainment. For advice though, you need to be spot on and there is a lot of competition. You'd probably only get advertising revenue as a funding (or try indygogo?) and that can sway your honesty in reviews. Unless you use a model similar to RPS, where the advertising is separate form the publishing. :)

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    you get it for free, as a download link off an open, public website. No strings attached.
    Cool, you set that up, I'm setting up the company that sells machines built to the same spec but cheaper because I don't have to pay for the website support stuff that you're already doing.

  17. #117
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Graphics fidelity is already overreaching peoples visual ability to distinguish the difference. It's there, but it's not enough to drive sales. Sales are what you need.

    Besides, I think the best thing for you would be to give reviews/commentaries or advice. Remember, reviews and commentaries are entirely OPINION so you can do what you wish, call it entertainment. For advice though, you need to be spot on and there is a lot of competition. You'd probably only get advertising revenue as a funding (or try indygogo?) and that can sway your honesty in reviews. Unless you use a model similar to RPS, where the advertising is separate form the publishing. :)
    that's a sensible suggestion (I mean that in all sincerity), but blogging just doesn't interest me.
    Let me be clear, I'm not starting a business and asking advice here. If I were to set up a startup I'd do it in the field I'm best at - SASS.
    I just started this thread to discuss the idea in general and suss out why it would or wouldn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Cool, you set that up, I'm setting up the company that sells machines built to the same spec but cheaper because I don't have to pay for the website support stuff that you're already doing.
    The kind of business I am imagining would win out on ingenuity. It's not easy to find the right kind of talent that can build something on the level that Origin or Falcon NW deliver. Not to mention landing the kind of deals that would allow the sourcing of the hardware for cheaper than market value (to be compensated in volume). Anybody can cobble together parts in a HAF-X and install windows, but few can build 4.5Ghz ITX mini PCs or 5Ghz desktops. That's precisely why the software would be free, it's an open challenge to competitors. May the best man win :)
    Last edited by mashakos; 16-11-2012 at 12:36 AM.
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  18. #118
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    I think there could be a pretty decent market opportunity for someone taking a page from the Mac lineup planning playbook and applying it to building gaming PCs. Offer only a limited amount of choice, but make sure the choice the customer gets is always meaningful. Refuse to offer underpowered, loud or ugly machines - just accept your price range starts higher than competitors who sell crap, and also make sure every model is decent value for money for those who it is intended for. Don't force the customer to waste their time memorizing 20 different component specs. Explain them what the real-world differences of their options are, and back your words with links to 3rd party reviews and benchmarks so the customer can go learn more or verify you are telling the truth.

    You don't really need to offer much choice at all to cover the needs of many gaming PC buyers. If one doesn't even try to serve people on a shoestring budget, or people who are very particular about brands or minor features, or the 1% who want quad SLI and overclocked network cards, I think it boils down to about this:
    Case - a clean budget case, a clean high-end midtower case and a nice SFF case
    CPU - midrange or high end Intel quad
    GPU - about 3 or 4 different choices starting from Radeon 7850'ish performance and price, and ending at Geforce 680'ish performance and price

    There would be good economies of scale in going with that limited of a selection, and that would allow the builder to be more aggressive on price.

  19. #119
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    I think there could be a pretty decent market opportunity for someone taking a page from the Mac lineup planning playbook and applying it to building gaming PCs.
    Okay...

    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    Offer only a limited amount of choice, but make sure the choice the customer gets is always meaningful. Refuse to offer underpowered, loud or ugly machines - just accept your price range starts higher than competitors who sell crap, and also make sure every model is decent value for money for those who it is intended for. Don't force the customer to waste their time memorizing 20 different component specs. Explain them what the real-world differences of their options are, and back your words with links to 3rd party reviews and benchmarks so the customer can go learn more or verify you are telling the truth.
    ...You have an unrealistically rosy view of what the Mac line-up is. It actively stonewalls the consumer who actually wants to know what's going on, it's consistently $300-500 more expensive than the parts are worth, and it's filled with bloated crap nobody needs.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    ...You have an unrealistically rosy view of what the Mac line-up is. It actively stonewalls the consumer who actually wants to know what's going on, it's consistently $300-500 more expensive than the parts are worth, and it's filled with bloated crap nobody needs.
    I said "take a page from the Mac lineup planning", not "do exactly as Apple does".

    The most significant decisions facing the average Mac buyer are not of components and performance, but that of system form factor and that of screen size. Apple makes these choices straightforward to the customer. The iMac comes in exactly two screen sizes, 21.5" and 27". An in-between size like 24" would be bulkier than the 21.5", yet not really do anything more than the 21.5" due to sharing the same resolution. If you are the sort who wants a lot of screen real-estate, you should buy the 27" anyway. Apple has left those choices which make a real difference and eliminated the others.

    With gaming PCs, on the other hand, the key choice most people actually need to make is how much to spend on performance. For my hypothetical gaming PC builder, there's no need to offer more options than there are significantly different levels of performance. The best GPU at $150 is not that different from the best GPU at $200, for instance.

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