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  1. #141
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    I doubt there are many people who need a water cooled PC, who also don't have any idea how to put it together, either.

  2. #142
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Congratulations, you have a water-cooled rig.

    Do you want a cookie?

    Honestly, this shit ain't rocket science.
    You just don't see it. If you put someone like, say, Gundato to task with a water cooling loop, who doesn't know what they're doing, you will get a lot of PCs with severe heat issues due to trapped air or even worse - water leaking onto the motherboard or cpu. To avoid this, you will need to train staff on various safety measures and early detection methodologies. Even after this training, you would still need to work at developing the workers' skill to the point where they won't end up having to start over if leaks or air bubbles are detected. On top of which you would need to train them on the geneal principles of noise reduction. Not exactly ideal for an assembly line setup.
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  3. #143
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    You just don't see it.
    I refer you to my previous post.
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Well, I still disagree that you need particularly skilled labor to assemble even a "high performance" PC since it still boils down to "insert tab A into slot B". Mainly because the design and part selection would be done elsewhere.

    But yeah. The problem is that such a product would be targeting "knowledgeable" customers (otherwise you just make a fairly good rig and market it as Alienware or whatever) who could assemble it themselves (or buy the parts and pay someone to assemble it). So you can't charge TOO much on top of it, and your profit margins drop drastically. And for 99%* of the world, they don't need this product. So you can't make up for it in bulk


    *: I pulled that number out of my ass, but it is probably close.
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  5. #145
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I've bullshitted a lot of people in my day. It comes with the territory when folks are paying you for your perceived expertise and rent's coming up.

    But if you're gonna flap your gums about the difficulty of a task, at least know your audience. It's getting kind of insulting.
    oh right, i've actually replied to this above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woundedbum View Post
    I doubt there are many people who need a water cooled PC, who also don't have any idea how to put it together, either.
    off topic. The discussion is about pre-built PCs.
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  6. #146
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    It's completely on topic. Why would you need to mass produce water cooled PCs? There's no demand for it which is why what you are suggesting has never taken off.

  7. #147
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I refer you to my previous post.
    no, you're just being stubborn here. This isn't about the difficulty of a DIY rig (watercooling, phase change, whatever), it's about the difficulty of mass producing a PC with more complex assembly than "insert PCIe card here ->"
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  8. #148
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    You just don't see it. If you put someone like, say, Gundato to task with a water cooling loop, who doesn't know what they're doing, you will get a lot of PCs with severe heat issues due to trapped air or even worse - water leaking onto the motherboard or cpu. To avoid this, you will need to train staff on various safety measures and early detection methodologies. Even after this training, you would still need to work at developing the workers' skill to the point where they won't end up having to start over if leaks or air bubbles are detected. On top of which you would need to train them on the geneal principles of noise reduction. Not exactly ideal for an assembly line setup.
    No, you really really don't. You just need to teach them how to shove stuff into holes and how to not murder themselves in a way that can hold you liable (so standard sweat shop procedure). It truly isn't a magical process.

    But, I can see that you don't really have a point beyond "Pretend I, Mashy, am the smartest man in the world and they are all idiots". Which, like nally says, is one of those things where you have to know your audience. This audience actually knows how to do that crap (or at least how to watch a youtube).


    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    Relevant: http://youtu.be/0IoV5nrV4E0
    Even the pros can [mess] it up. :P
    Ha ha. Funny :p

    To be fair, the problem was that he didn't cut the tubing correctly. Having a team of sweat shop workers handling the cutting would avoid that.
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  9. #149
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woundedbum View Post
    It's completely on topic. Why would you need to mass produce water cooled PCs? There's no demand for it which is why what you are suggesting has never taken off.
    why would Apple mass produce an mp3 player with a hard disk in 2001? There was next to no demand for hard disk mp3 players back then, everyone wanted those usb stick thingies with 1GB space on them.

    There is no demand because nobody has done it right, or has made a high quality product that's cheaper than $4000.
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  10. #150
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    oh right, i've actually replied to this above.
    I can't tell if you're really convinced that what you're describing is difficult and as such are that contemptuous of anybody who's ever worked in a technical field, or if this is an extended metaphor for hipster arts and crafts.
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  11. #151
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    No, you really really don't. You just need to teach them how to shove stuff into holes and how to not murder themselves in a way that can hold you liable (so standard sweat shop procedure). It truly isn't a magical process.
    you literally have zero background on the subject of water cooling, why are you making statements on a subject you are ignorant about?
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  12. #152
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    Because the hard disk was the natural evolution, like DVD was to CD. Water-cooling exists alongside aircooling, and isn't needed.

  13. #153
    Would you pay extra for an easy PC gaming experience?

    I dunno man but I think that PC gaming is already easy enough. Hardware requirements are stagnating, digital download services with automated updating an games that are designed for a broad spectrum of hardware in order to maximize your potential buyers made it easy enough for the average joe to enjoy gaming on the PC.

    Comparatively, try buying and installing a game on your PS3. It's a pain in the butt and even more confusing than just buying something on steam for example. Couple of days ago I tried to buy Double Dragon Neon from the PS3 store. It didnt want to accept my paypal, so I had to login on my PC in order to buy it via their website. Then I had to update my profile on the PS3 with a gamepad and an on screen keyboard. Then I had to navigate the relatively confusing menus, download the game, install it on the HDD and update it before I could even play. Yeah... gaming on the console isn't any easier than on the PC nowadays.

    As for the hardware, it's pretty easy to buy a decent pre-mounted system for a reasonable price. If you want fancy stuff, just order at your local pc store and pay them 100-200 euros. For that price, they will gladly install all your stuff, be it water cooling, sound isolation or whatever...

    As for myself, I buy single parts and put them together myself. It's not rocket science. I used to mod my own PC cases, do the usualy overclocking stuff, install my own water cooling, install some fancy lights or a case window... the usual jazz. I knew some german people who made custom heat sinks for water cooling systems made out of copper... that was back then, when overclocking actually brought some improvements for the games you wanted to play and when CPUs and GPUs were little heating centrals that needed a lot of cooling. Nowadays I couldn't care less. Most hardware has become pretty energy efficient, reducing heat development and overclocking has become mostly useless for your gaming habits. So why go all the way and install some fancy water cooling system that is only a pain in the arse to maintain properly, when simple air cooling is enough?

    If you want a silent system (something that has become my most important factor aside from cost/performance) you can do that easily enough nowadays without fancy stuff. Unless your are a rocket scientist or something and need a super computer... but in that situation you got either the money to pay for such a system or you already know what to do anyway.

  14. #154
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    Honestly, the only type of water cooling I can see being mainstream/high volume demand is a unpowered (over than convection) radiator setup. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe Perhaps with a fan, but no water pump, it's just too much "engineering" right now to be serviceable and reliable.

    In fact, the power demand is ebbing away from the actual output available in chips. See the other thread on what 30 of Arm chips and Android can output gaming and graphics wise!

    If you want bleeding edge power and service, it's small quantity, high price. There your key is offering a great service, and practically it's yourself you sell to your customers. Not sure if there is a market, but someone must make the PCs and games systems for the Dotcoms and Footballers. :)

  15. #155
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I can't tell if you're really convinced that what you're describing is difficult and as such are that contemptuous of anybody who's ever worked in a technical field, or if this is an extended metaphor for hipster arts and crafts.
    again, you just don't see the nuance...
    Designing a 3 x 120mm radiator, dual pump, fully water cooled, overclocked SLI configuration on a PC case that is half the size of a HAF-X and keeping the rig quiet on top of all of that is not easy. Translating that design into a production line is near Herculean.

    Trust me, if you were offered a $1000 PC that is miles beyond anything you can build on your own for the same price or even more, you'd want one.
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  16. #156
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woundedbum View Post
    Because the hard disk was the natural evolution, like DVD was to CD. Water-cooling exists alongside aircooling, and isn't needed.
    not if size and noise are a priority.
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  17. #157
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    you literally have zero background on the subject of water cooling, why are you making statements on a subject you are ignorant about?
    When did I show you my CV or any of my previous work? Well, whatever you were looking at was kind of out of date.


    ALso Mashy, people HAVE done assembly-line manufactured liquid cooled rigs. You know that company I mentioned earlier as the gold standard for ripping off customers who don't want to build their own rigs? They do liquid cooling as well. In fact, their current flagship (the Aurora) does use liquid cooling by default.

    And somehow, I don't see Dell doing anything that needs a particualrly high amount of training.

    Again mashy, pretending you are smarter than everyone and launching personal attacks and implying people are stupid might work on the playground (or even at the water cooler). It doesn't really work when you are talking to the kinds of people who actually HAVE looked into this crap before. At the very least, research the subject before you pretend you know things about it.
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  18. #158
    Forum ate my comment. In short:

    1. PC gaming has become easy enough. Try buying and installing games on a console, it's even more a hassle than buying something on steam for example.

    2. It is not difficult to build your own PC. Heck even a water cooling system is easy to install, but can be a pain in the arse to maintain properly. Gaming hardware has become affordable and efficient enough that you don't need to overclock anymore or install some fancyschmancy water cooling. CPUs and GPUs have become so energy efficient that they don't heat up as much as in ye olde days. So building a high performance AND silent system on air cooling is easily possible.

  19. #159
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    ALso Mashy, people HAVE done assembly-line manufactured liquid cooled rigs. You know that company I mentioned earlier as the gold standard for ripping off customers who don't want to build their own rigs? They do liquid cooling as well. In fact, their current flagship (the Aurora) does use liquid cooling by default.
    you just set yourself up for a fail. Dell uses rebranded Asetek watercooling kits that are worse than air cooling in most cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Again mashy, pretending you are smarter than everyone and launching personal attacks and implying people are stupid might work on the playground (or even at the water cooler). It doesn't really work when you are talking to the kinds of people who actually HAVE looked into this crap before. At the very least, research the subject before you pretend you know things about it.
    better take your own advice here. Bringing up an overpriced PC line with an Asetek watercooling unit shows real laziness on your part.
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  20. #160
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Also, just for the record:

    For the consumer, liquid cooling is questionable at best. Power consumption VS air will vary based upon how it is hooked up. However, generally, for a system running at "normal" temperature, air cooling with fans that are quiet enough to not be noticeable will be more power efficient in an air conditioned environment because you are only "paying" to circulate, not chill. If, for some reason, your system is running at high temperatures/in a hot environment, you probably have other concerns, but then you want liquid cooling (or a stronger fan (or to figure out why your computer is running so hot/your balls are sticking to the chair due to the heat)).

    For a mainframe/installation (so server farm, bigass/"super" computer, etc), it really depends on the installation as to what is more power efficient. But water cooling has become popular because you can use it to heat your building and, if you are in a sufficiently cold environment, you can further decrease the energy costs of chilling the water. But there are also MANY good arguments for air cooling (especially because something as simple as suspending a tarp from the ceiling can have noticeable performance and energy improvements).

    One big thing right now is liquid submersion cooling in which the entire system is submerged in a neutral liquid. For the consumer, this is likely the cheapest, but least convenient, approach. For the installation, it is a hot button topic.
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