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  1. #21
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    Welcome Velijah, you don't need the expansion to play :)
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  2. #22
    Network Hub DeVadder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maetco View Post
    (..)

    Oh, and as I already kind of hinted, regardless what mode we'll be playing in the end I would really like it if the teams would be required to be indentical in all of the matches. Not in the sense that player 1 team should be identical in match 1 and match 2 but that the player 1 team should be identical to player 2 team in match 1, the player 1 team should be identical to player 2 team in match 2, etc... I hope you can understand my rambling.
    Well, if there are two games, i do not really see why this would be needed. The team of player 1 in game 1 will be the team of player 2 in game 2. It's like Bridge (It is allowed to use Bridge as an example in computer games? Does anyone know how Bridge tournaments work?). So if one team has an edge, then the match is about who wins higher with that team. The only reason for all this is, that we got kind of bored of symmetrical dark extermination. And i could go into great detail, why i think that is a kinda bad mode, anyways. Imho the decision how to open the match very often comes down to rock, paper, scissors. But that should not be of interest here.

    One last point to the divisions: There is no formal way to go up or down. The amount of divisions is determined by game mode, number of players and hand waving. If the size is 5, then from all sign-ups those 5 will be division one who have done best in the last season.
    Or who are known to kick everyones ass, i suppose. But i do not know about that.

  3. #23
    Network Hub Maetco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeVadder View Post
    Well, if there are two games, i do not really see why this would be needed.
    The reason is simple. I don't find to be fun when my goal in a match is not to win but to stall a draw or a minor loss and I would like even less if my opponent did this. In fact I would probably dislike it so much that I would try to win no matter the scale of uneveness of the teams (referring the first option not the second). And it's not really needed but I would just like it very much.

    Your point makes perfect sense when thinking about fairness of the whole season/division/league but when it comes down to playing a single match (and in the end that's what we do) imo it's so much better when the teams are identical.

    Ps. I have no idea how Bridge or its tournaments work.

  4. #24
    Network Hub DeVadder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maetco View Post
    Ps. I have no idea how Bridge or its tournaments work.
    I figured that might not have been the best example. ^^
    Bridge is played 2v2. In the first round of a tournament you just get your cards and play some other team B. But after each round, the hands are not shuffled back. They remain on the 4 sides of the tables. So in round 2 you play some team C but you use the same hands that before were used by two entirely different teams. That continues for a number of rounds and afterwards, you are awarded points by how well your team fared at each table compared to all other teams that used the same cards against the same opposing cards.
    Does that make sense? It is not about winning every game, but about making the best of the given hands.

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    In the past we have prescribed that either a rocket launcher or a grenade be on each team to help prevent someone going full turtle, and with the addition of the Focus Aim mutator in the DLC it has become potentially much less of a problem. And sometimes it's an entirely valid strategy to go for the draw when there's a metagame going on - it may become about denying your opponents the 3 points as much as about gaining a point yourself.

    While I can see that there is a case to be made for identical teams, I'd counter that a random map might then favour one player over another and we're back to playing symmetric maps. Besides, there's something particularly pleasing about winning from an unfavourable starting position (or so I'd imagine).

    That being said: please don't think, Maetco, that I'm just shutting you down. I am entirely open to adding new preconditions and rules if you can convince the rest of the folks here that it would be interesting or beneficial to try it - that's partly why we have this thread going for a week prior the start of the season, and it's at least as much their decision as it is mine.


  6. #26
    Network Hub Maetco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeVadder View Post
    I figured that might not have been the best example. ^^
    Bridge is played 2v2. In the first round of a tournament you just get your cards and play some other team B. But after each round, the hands are not shuffled back. They remain on the 4 sides of the tables. So in round 2 you play some team C but you use the same hands that before were used by two entirely different teams. That continues for a number of rounds and afterwards, you are awarded points by how well your team fared at each table compared to all other teams that used the same cards against the same opposing cards.
    Does that make sense? It is not about winning every game, but about making the best of the given hands.
    Yeah, thanks for that. Never too late to learn something new.

  7. #27
    Network Hub Maetco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColOfNature View Post
    And sometimes it's an entirely valid strategy to go for the draw when there's a metagame going on - it may become about denying your opponents the 3 points as much as about gaining a point yourself.
    Yes it can be potentially be the best possible thing to do in order to win the whole season in a certain situation but that doesn't mean it wouldn't feel like a chore.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColOfNature View Post
    I'd counter that a random map might then favour one player over another
    True but I've played over 20 matches now and can't remember a single match where I had felt that one team would have a clear advantage over the other where the advantage is caused by the map. That has proven to be one of the great things about FS, its random generator seems to be very well done. Every single map feels fair even in execution when the starting point is a 'situation'. I can remember 1 match (mode was Dark Charge) where I felt that my opponent clearly had an advantage over me in the bidding but even that was just by 1 bidding-line. Usually the advantage is about how long does it take to get your guys into good positions. Eg player1 can get his/her guys into good positions during the first turn while player2 has to use the first 3 turns. But even when this happens player1 can't prevent player2 from getting his/her guys into the good positions during those first 3 turns. So as long as player2 has any patience s/he can negate the advantage caused by the random map by turn 3.

    Different team compositions on the other hand cannot be countered. The advantage remains as long as the cause isn't removed meaning until the player with the disadvantage is able to kill them. And because s/he is in a disadvantageous situation that's basically the same as saying that only you need to do is to be a better player.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColOfNature View Post
    Besides, there's something particularly pleasing about winning from an unfavourable starting position (or so I'd imagine).
    This is true can't deny that but...it's kind a like you would suggest to your opponent that they have only 10 players against your 11 in the up-coming football match by saying that: '...yeah, but think about it. If you do win it's gonna feel a lot better this way than what it would have if you too had had 11 players.'

    Quote Originally Posted by ColOfNature View Post
    please don't think, Maetco, that I'm just shutting you down.
    Not at all. On the contrary usually when I start to "talk" about something like this people don't even try to give any arguments about why their way iz Da bes and announces me to be a trouble maker. I also hope you don't feel like I'm just complaining about everything. I'm just saying how I enjoy FS the most and trying to explain why.

    All this being said (and I'm fairly certain more will be said in the future) I obviously don't care how others play their matches. I'm just asking that whenever someone challenges me the teams would be made identical or just let me be the challenger in all of my games, that would work too.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    I've put all the modes in the columns to the right of the comments box. Could you put one or minus one in the column for whatever mode you want to play (or don't). I've tried to interpret what you've said, but you may want to change it yourself. If there's a clear winner we'll play that, otherwise I'll either pick one at random or put it to a brief vote on Friday.


  9. #29
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    OK, I've put my 1/-1s in place, so you can use that to plan :)

    ----
    Unrelated, but I thought I'd ask...
    In my day job I write budgeting software (it's the world's best, seriously!) and I'm trying to get us greenlit on Steam, so I was wondering if I could ask a big favour? If you feel so inclined, could you please click this link and vote 'yes', so we have a better chance of making it in the upcoming GreenLight batch on Friday?

    The link: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=103234337

    Many thanks, and I'm looking forward to (virtually) shooting up all your dudes in the coming season!
    Find me on Steam
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  10. #30
    Network Hub BigBobr99's Avatar
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    Good time of day, ladies and gents! Here is a little preview of RPS Frozen Synapse League 15! (moderators are taking a ton of time modrating my long messages, so I'll just post little ones instead)

    ColOfNature (ranked 5825) It seems right to begin our player introduction with the person running our humble league.

    Entering the last tournament ColofNature was looking on improving his all-time disputed record which, at the time, stood at 4 games – 4 losses. The first success came in game 628738 where he managed to beat a high-ranked rodeoclown with the score of 30. Entering the 5th turn of the game with 2 men against 3 opponents, he managed a super-sleek move with his riot-shield. The move has also been referred to as a “good-bye kiss to the sniper”. Watch the game if you want to see the fames move.

    Going into the new season ColOfNature will keep his fingers crossed for any mode except Disputed. An overall record of only 2 Disputed wins in 13 matches speaks for itself.

  11. #31
    Obscure Node lazer's Avatar
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    Oh butts, it just occurred to me, will we be playing with the DLC? I do not have it and will have to purchase it or withdraw from this season if that's the case.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    Probably not, Upload doesn't seem to be winning at the moment.


  13. #33
    Network Hub Maetco's Avatar
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    I posted a reply like 2 - 3 days ago but it still hasn't been approved by a moderator for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColOfNature View Post
    While I can see that there is a case to be made for identical teams, I'd counter that a random map might then favour one player over another and we're back to playing symmetric maps.
    I can't really remember what I wrote but my message was that this is true but the effect is very minimal. I can remember only one game where I felt that I clearly had a disadvantage or an advantage thanks to to randomly generated map. The mode was Charge and the disadvantage was about the bid. My opponent had a "safe-zone" of one more line than what I did meaning that if we both bidded a safe bid (you can easily get there alive but it's not quaranteed that you can remain alive long enough) my opponent would win the bid.

    If the teams differ the (dis-)advantage can get huge.

    And another thing I wrote was that of course others can play against each other with unidentical teams but I would really appreciate it if anyone challenging me would make sure the teams are identical or just let me do the challenging.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    If we agree that all matches should have identical teams then that's one thing, but personal requirements will not be binding. You can make the request, of course, but if someone chooses not to honour it then you play the game as challenged or forfeit the match. I'm sorry if I sound draconian but I just want to be clear: you may ask, but you can't expect someone to accomodate a personal rule.

    If I can get identical teams from the random generator within a reasonable number of attempts then I'll play it, if that's what you'd prefer, but I'm not going to spend more than a few seconds trying and no-one even has to go that far if they don't feel like it.


  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Tyranny!

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    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
    For the Emperor!, a Total War: Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai AAR

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    The mask has slipped. My true nature revealed!


  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodeoclown View Post
    Unrelated, but I thought I'd ask...
    In my day job I write budgeting software (it's the world's best, seriously!) and I'm trying to get us greenlit on Steam, so I was wondering if I could ask a big favour? If you feel so inclined, could you please click this link and vote 'yes', so we have a better chance of making it in the upcoming GreenLight batch on Friday?

    The link: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=103234337

    Many thanks, and I'm looking forward to (virtually) shooting up all your dudes in the coming season!
    Thanks everyone who voted - we're one of the first 6 non-games to be greenlit!

    Now I'm even more looking forward to shooting guys (virtually)!
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  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    One would hope you'd show your appreciation to those who voted by not shooting their guys quite so assiduously as normal.


    (brb, voting...)


  19. #39
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    I did that whole "not shooting so much" pre-emptively last round :)
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  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ColOfNature's Avatar
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    If I'd known you weren't trying I'd have... um... lost... anyway? Hm. Congratulations, nonetheless.


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