Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 74

Thread: Linearity

  1. #41
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bobtree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    522
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    Why would a game designer want to trick people into thinking a game is non-linear?
    Money and marketing. It's cheaper to cheat players than to make a true open-ended design with fully realized options.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,813
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtree View Post
    Money and marketing. It's cheaper to cheat players than to make a true open-ended design with fully realized options.
    Also, a game that FEELS "non-linear" tends to be more fun and feel like it has more depth, which is the important part.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtree View Post
    Money and marketing. It's cheaper to cheat players than to make a true open-ended design with fully realized options.
    I think gundato's explanation is a bit better than yours. CoD makes no attempt to even give off a hint of non-linearity, but it's still selling an insane number of copies.

    If a game is to have any kind of structure, you have to draw the line somewhere. Most game worlds aren't infinite. Those that are tend to break down into a kind of "Already seen this, not interested" repetition and lose some depth in the process. Minecraft for example has a lot of things to do, but the core survival element basically boils down to "build a wall with a lip and put torches on it" and that's it, you're safe. Really the game is pretty simple if you know the crafting recipes. But the sheer amount of stuff to do and see makes up for it.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,813
    In a lot of ways, "open world" games and "non-linearity" remind me of "realism"

    Truly "realistic" bullet physics would actually be almost indistinguishable from hitscan weapons. At the ranges most gameplay occurs, a properly sighted weapon should have almost no discernable drop. Instead, we are taught to "aim high" so that it is "realistic".

    Then take a game like Far Cry 2. Iti s most hindered by being a game where you spend 95% of your time going past the same few checkpoints with respawning guards or taking public transportation to different areas. That is one game that would DEFINITELY have benefited from a more "linear" design.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Truly "realistic" bullet physics would actually be almost indistinguishable from hitscan weapons. At the ranges in Call of Duty multiplayer, a properly sighted weapon should have almost no discernable drop. Instead, we are taught to "aim high" so that it is "realistic".
    I fixed your sentence for you.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,813
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I fixed your sentence for you.
    Not really. The only games where combat at such ranges even EXISTS is probably OFP/ArmA, Red Orchestra, and SOME Battlefield maps. And even then, OFP/ArmA is the only one where that happens consistently (RO and BF tend to get close quarters if you aren't a sniper).
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Not really. The only games where combat at such ranges even EXISTS is probably OFP/ArmA, Red Orchestra, and SOME Battlefield maps. And even then, OFP/ArmA is the only one where that happens consistently (RO and BF tend to get close quarters if you aren't a sniper).
    Thank you for proving my point for me. You even cited examples!
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,813
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Thank you for proving my point for me. You even cited examples!
    Then I pity you for skipping titles like Crysis, Metro, and STALKER. And apparently Red Orchestra and Battlefield 3.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  9. #49
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    235
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Which is ironic since no game does linearity as good as CoD.
    Good job. Dumbest comment of the year in RPS forums(no easy feat). If linear games such as DooM or Blood trick players to think the level design is non-linear, why a in your face linear game is the best?

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,813
    Quote Originally Posted by dnf View Post
    Good job. Dumbest comment of the year in RPS forums(no easy feat). If linear games such as DooM or Blood trick players to think the level design is non-linear, why a in your face linear game is the best?
    Well, I guess there wasn't enough hate and insults in this thread. We WERE doing pretty well though. Even me and nally were pretty neutral to one another.

    DOOM-era games tend to fall into the category of "linear with hidden secrets and slight path deviations". CoD falls into the category of "Hallway with the illusion of a few extra doors". Hence, CoD embraces linearity to an obscene degree so as to make the entire game, from start to finish, a "set piece" as it were. And while you clearly don't like that, a crapton of people DO (which is why CoD is so popular and CoD style SP campaigns have become pretty popular).

    Its like the difference between a movie with a plot that happens to have a few scenes of action and a Michael Bay style action movie. The former makes you focus on the story with a few explosions to increase the interest. The latter is non-stop explosions and what not. Both have their appeal and while too much of the latter isn't a good thing, it is hard to deny the fun of it every so often (more often if you embrace your inner slack-jawed yokel :p).
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by dnf View Post
    Good job. Dumbest comment of the year in RPS forums(no easy feat). If linear games such as DooM or Blood trick players to think the level design is non-linear, why a in your face linear game is the best?
    There is no trick, they are quite simply not non-linear. id Software didn't even think about non-linearity, because they knew that the entire point was to get from the start to the exit, pick up items, and kill demons.

    His assessment is clearly an opinion but it isn't necessarily a bad one and certainly not a dumb one. The CoD games actually do linearity fairly well because they're a constant stream of short, sharp levels with plenty of violence and explosions and gun-wank moments. That's all they ever try to be, and they've been doing that since the first ever CoD... which I'll remind you was a PC exclusive (until it hit consoles many years later, N-Gage doesn't even count). The first CoD and the later CoDs are in terms of level design principles pretty much identical - a linear path from A to B with explosions and things going on.

    And as I recall, lots of us PC gamers really liked that one...

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Then I pity you for skipping titles like Crysis, Metro, and STALKER. And apparently Red Orchestra and Battlefield 3.
    I've played all those games. And BF3 has bullet drop. I'm beginning to suspect you​ didn't play all those games. Not that your original point has anything to do with anything.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I've played all those games. And BF3 has bullet drop. I'm beginning to suspect you​ didn't play all those games. Not that your original point has anything to do with anything.
    They're fairly arbitrary and "gamey" implementations though. Compare engagements in ARMA2 and BF3 at similar ranges (if you can set something like that up) and you'll notice the difference. Not that there's anything wrong with that because ARMA2's infantry walk around like tiny legged vehicles unlike in real life... plus not every game should have realistic mechanics, it'd be boring and not very fun.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    They're fairly arbitrary and "gamey" implementations though. Compare engagements in ARMA2 and BF3 at similar ranges (if you can set something like that up) and you'll notice the difference. Not that there's anything wrong with that because ARMA2's infantry walk around like tiny legged vehicles unlike in real life... plus not every game should have realistic mechanics, it'd be boring and not very fun.
    Yeah, but I'm failing to see why it was brought up to begin with, except perhaps to allude to the fact that everything exists on a continuum.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,218
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Yeah, but I'm failing to see why it was brought up to begin with, except perhaps to allude to the fact that everything exists on a continuum.
    Um... because... games?

    I think gundato was using it as a sort of comparative issue with gaming - the inclusion of things like bullet drop to make things "realistic" when they're actually pushing further into "game" territory. The idea was that games should be more realistic but it ends up being a bit ridiculous. He seems to liken that to linearity by mentioning how FC2 is somewhat non-linear yet has a lot of elements which sap some of the enjoyment out of it (respawning guards etc).

    Alternatively, my Scroll Lock light is on, so if that seems to be a more relevant explanation feel free to accept it.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,813
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Um... because... games?

    I think gundato was using it as a sort of comparative issue with gaming - the inclusion of things like bullet drop to make things "realistic" when they're actually pushing further into "game" territory. The idea was that games should be more realistic but it ends up being a bit ridiculous. He seems to liken that to linearity by mentioning how FC2 is somewhat non-linear yet has a lot of elements which sap some of the enjoyment out of it (respawning guards etc).

    Alternatively, my Scroll Lock light is on, so if that seems to be a more relevant explanation feel free to accept it.
    Pretty much.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,290
    CoD has directors, not designers.
    pass

  18. #58
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,093
    That's deep.

    Too deep for me in fact

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,290
    I know.

    Linearity in games is simply an aspect of Planned Obsolescence. Planned obsolescence is a fact, it has been promoted especially after the financial crisis of 1920. When something lasts forever, consumers only buy a few and stop buying. So you "need" to design things which have durability limited by design.

    The Light Bulb Conspiracy - 52:50 min (highly recommended)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A1UeV5mC_w
    It starts with the efforts to reduce the life cycle of a lightbulb from 2500 hours to 1000 hours, and ends with ipods whose batteries are designed to be impossible to replace and last 3 years.

    Obviously it's very convenient for a game publisher to sell "games" that last for 10 hours and are not replayable. They wouldn't want you to play a game for years. Who would be buying Game + 1 ?
    pass

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    2,511
    Wait, what?
    You're applying the concept of planned obsolescence to media output. It doesn't work like that. It's like saying books are made to be replaced while it's only the media support (like in the physical book or cds/diskettes for games) not the story that can be designed to become obsolete.
    To be able to apply the concept the product should be left unusable, and although you saw everything the game can offer you can still play it again all the times you want, the game doesn't stop working after you finish it (which should be the case if it were made with planned obsolescence in mind).
    You can only stretch the concept to something like multiplayer games with subsequent releases (like call of duty games) where the game is engineered to be replaced a year later when the new game is released and the community leave one game for the other.
    So no, Planned obsolescence doesn't have anything to do with linear games.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •