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  1. #101
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's a fair point, because the popularity of Call of Duty completely killed off Chess. It's nearly impossible to find a chess board these days. Just like when Rock and Roll turned up classical music died and it's impossible to hear it any more.
    Oh god, now you're just being ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    All I'm saying is that cramming an authorial narrative into a game prevents a game from being the best of what it can be: an emergent and meaningfully interactive experience.
    I think there's too much emphasis placed on emergent gameplay these days, to the point where it's becoming a meaningless term as people try to incorporate it (can it really be emergent if it's a core part of the game?). I don't think it's correct to imply that an "emergent and meaningfully interactive experience" is superior to one with a narrative. Again, look at The Walking Dead.

    It's fine if you don't like those games, but it sounds like you're trying to imply a fact or absolute, which is wrong.

  2. #102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I think there's too much emphasis placed on emergent gameplay these days, to the point where it's becoming a meaningless term as people try to incorporate it (can it really be emergent if it's a core part of the game?). I don't think it's correct to imply that an "emergent and meaningfully interactive experience" is superior to one with a narrative. Again, look at The Walking Dead.

    It's fine if you don't like those games, but it sounds like you're trying to imply a fact or absolute, which is wrong.
    I don't think it's possible to place "too much emphasis on emergent gameplay" since interactivity is, again, what I think games are for.

    It's not worth arguing about though, both because no one's taste is going to change because of a well-reasoned argument and because I barely have a dog in this fight anyway. I enjoyed Mass Effect as the choose-your-own-adventure book it was. I just wish the industry was a bit more AI War and a bit less Call of Duty.

    Edit: For reference, I've not played Walking Dead, and don't really plan to. No interest in the subject or the format.
    Last edited by vinraith; 30-11-2012 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #103
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I think there's too much emphasis placed on emergent gameplay these days, to the point where it's becoming a meaningless term as people try to incorporate it (can it really be emergent if it's a core part of the game?). I don't think it's correct to imply that an "emergent and meaningfully interactive experience" is superior to one with a narrative. Again, look at The Walking Dead.
    Emergent game play is kind of akin to peoples stories of fun times on drugs (I'm sure we've all been there). The teller generally gets more out of it than the listener. With a narrative game at least there's something to have a discussion about ('this is how I did that mission' 'so how did you get past the guards? ' 'No I totally killed those dudes..they had it coming' etc, etc) where as 'And then I stuck my dick in the toaster ..you should of been there..it was hilarious' only go so far. Admittedly the latter can be made more bearable by the power of the youtubes capturing the action (I love watching the audacious shit people like http://www.youtube.com/user/birgirpall get upto) , by on large it's mainly 'cool story bro' time.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 30-11-2012 at 01:55 AM.
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  4. #104
    Lesser Hivemind Node SirDavies's Avatar
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    I have to say that I agree with him to a certain extent. Linear (Call of duty, Resident Evil...) or semi-linear storytelling(ME, The Walking Dead, Heavy Rain) is alright; it can be well written, it can come with awesome gameplay and it can be engaging, but I think videogames are at their best when they use their own language for telling stories, and that's interactivity. Day Z, Dark Souls, Journey... They all have engaging, immersive stories with little or no text at all. As technology advances and games get bigger and bigger, I think we will start to see a distinction from videogames and "interactive movies" so to speak. But maybe I'm wrong and by 2020 the Bioware offices will be the size of LA, filled with millions of devs writing, drawing and programming every single possible consequence to every possible action. Only time (or logic) will tell.

  5. #105
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Oh god, now you're just being ridiculous.
    He was using hyperbole on purpose. Because the post he was replying to with that really was absolutely ridiculous.
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  6. #106
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    I don't think it's possible to place "too much emphasis on emergent gameplay" since interactivity is, again, what I think games are for.
    It's entirely possible to have interactivity without the "emergent gameplay" you seem to be suggesting. The problem with focusing too much on emergent gameplay is that it could lead to a case where you've got a largely unstructured thing that expects 'players' to make up their own stuff. To cross that dangerous line back towards "what is/isn't a game", that's arguably not a game because it'd have no rules. It's hard to design a game around emergent gameplay because it defeats the purpose. Again, if it's designed for it, can it really be emergent gameplay?

    I agree that the industry needs more... well, maybe not AI War but perhaps more open games and less CoD, but I think one of the issues that I have with your post is that you're not only trying to argue for more emergent gameplay possibilities, but also arguing across genres. AI War (an RTS) and CoD (story-driven FPS, except for MP which is a different kettle of fish) are two entirely different games from entirely different genres. In any event, there's definitely a place for both kinds of games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Emergent game play is kind of akin to peoples stories of fun times on drugs (I'm sure we've all been there). The teller generally gets more out of it than the listener.
    I'd agree with that. Take Planetside or EVE war stories for example. They're fascinating to listen to, but playing them isn't always quite so much fun at the time. I've had more fun describing the red crusade to recapture The Crown where I drove in a 20-tank column than I did actually driving there while lag causes the guy in front to fidget back and forward and the engine bugs out so that the terrain disappears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    He was using hyperbole on purpose. Because the post he was replying to with that really was absolutely ridiculous.
    Firstly, it's a post by Wizardry. It's not worth responding with hyperbole. Secondly, it's still ridiculous.

  7. #107
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Firstly, it's a post by Wizardry. It's not worth responding with hyperbole. Secondly, it's still ridiculous.
    Urm... The most common use of hyperbole is to illustrate how something else is ridiculous by exaggerating it.

    Let's just agree that Wizardry needs to stop. Whatever he's doing can't possibly be healthy.
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  8. #108
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Let's just agree that Wizardry needs to stop. Whatever he's doing can't possibly be healthy.
    But he's so adorable when he's talking about RPGs.
    In my opinion, there isn't enough Wizardry. He should get his own section on RPS.

  9. #109
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    Tried to read all the posts up to this point, but when people veered off into defining games I sort of zoned out. Here's my two cents:

    All games have a narrative or at the very least, a meta-narrative. Mass Effect as about experiencing the big world around you, and the dangers therein. Tag is about how your closest ally can turn against you in a moment's notice. Poker is about how truth and lies should be carefully rationed. With regards to Mass Effect, I've always known that RPG's were never about diverse outcomes, but rather moving the plot along to an interesting story. That is a type of game that I love. It seems that McGrath is very narrow-minded in the way that he sees games (a common trait in indie developers it seems). Narrative and game play can interact in a multitude of ways that can be very fun.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Chess would be improved if there was a story to go along with it. Perhaps after each move the players could read a passage from an accompanying book. Due to the sheer number of possible move sequences and game states in standard chess, the game could be limited to a fixed sequence of moves that every game follows in order to tie in with a single narrative. The gameplay would become the action of moving each piece to the designated spot correctly, without accidentally dropping the pieces into the wrong squares. Upon failure, death occurs and the player would be able to reload that move and try once more.

    This truly is gaming progress, everyone.
    My wallet hit the screen.

    Seriously though, I believe it's absolutely possible to give chess a coherent and adaptive written narrative. Nobody just has the time, patience, and skill to create that kind of storytelling system, least not yet. Question then becomes, is chess better with a written narrative? No, but it will make more people want to play chess than currently do now, if only for curiosity's sake.

  11. #111
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RakeShark View Post
    My wallet hit the screen.

    Seriously though, I believe it's absolutely possible to give chess a coherent and adaptive written narrative. Nobody just has the time, patience, and skill to create that kind of storytelling system, least not yet. Question then becomes, is chess better with a written narrative? No, but it will make more people want to play chess than currently do now, if only for curiosity's sake.
    Heeheeheehee. My friends and I have this thing we've been working on whe. My friends and I call it "Farcical Feudal Chess" because that's what it is. It's just a reasonably sized body of house rules that make chess a little more random and silly while incorporating a mad mix of popular ideas about the middle ages, generic fantasy, and a couple of things I don't really know how to explain but find really, really fun in practice.

    There was also this stat-less RPG I found that used chess in a weird way I don't quite remember ... players took on the roles of rival kingdoms ... damn I want to find that again. I forget if it was any good.

    The base game is ok, but I really bought chess for the mod support. Ever tried Alice Chess? Way better than the base game.
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  12. #112
    Lesser Hivemind Node SirDavies's Avatar
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    Also, Singularity Chess:


  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    Do you want to know what is a terrible way to market a game ? The trailer of GTA V.
    (video)
    Is it pretty ? Yes. Is it polished ? Certainly. But as a presentation of a game, it's a fucking DISASTER. There's not a single moment in the video which gives you a hint that it's an interactive program, let alone showing how you can interact with it.
    Yes dear. The GTA V trailer. The official version of which has nearly 30 million views on YouTube. I'm sure Rockstar are currently kicking themselves in the face about how much of a marketing disaster it's been.
    Since you,re acting like an idiot, I'm going to treat you like one. I emphasized some words to make the message more clear, but apparently you need special help. I'll start by providing my quote in full context.

    I never said the video is a marketing disaster. As marketing, it works, because players are familiar with the name "GTA V". The video is also popular because people are pointed to it by others who say "look how awesome this game looks". The last sentence you conveniently skipped in your quote means that the video doesn't give any idea how the game plays like. It could be a point&click adventure game, like Full Throttle. It could be a some crime overlord management game. It could be a shooter like Max Payne or even Sim City. It could be just a racing game with angry and angsty characters.
    pass

  14. #114
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    It’s just a waste of time. I’ve read a lot of science fiction. The science fiction in Mass Effect is not something I would consider even passable for a high school paper. It’s horrible. But if you put in a game then it’s praised for being so great. It’s especially so because in the context of video games, stories are fucking awful.
    Thank you, this needed to be said.

    Fan fiction quality drivel is too kind to describe mass effect and indeed your average video game 'story'.

    If you think mass effect had a quality story, please do yourself and everyone else a favor and pick up a book sometime, ANY book, something in the youth section of your local library will have better storytelling than this.
    Last edited by Finicky; 30-11-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    It could be a point&click adventure game, like Full Throttle. It could be a some crime overlord management game. It could be a shooter like Max Payne or even Sim City. It could be just a racing game with angry and angsty characters.
    It's GTA V. It's a piece of advertising targeted at people who know what a GTA game is. As such, they'll already know what to expect from the gameplay, at least in terms of genre. It's a piece of marketing that succeeds at marketing to people it's trying to market too.

    Yes, it's a fucking disaster at telling people who have never heard of GTA before what GTA V is. But that's like saying an orange is a fucking disaster at being a hair brush.

  16. #116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Thank you, this needed to be said.

    Fan fiction quality drivel is too kind to describe mass effect and indeed your average video game 'story'.

    If you think mass effect had a quality story, please do yourself and everyone else a favor and pick up a book sometime, ANY book, something in the youth section of your local library will have better storytelling than this.
    Depends on how you define a quality story. The narrative arc is pretty archetypal, the plotting is very weak, the pacing is all over the place, but the game contains sequences, mini-arcs, and most of all characters that I gave a damn about. Sort of like most RPGs I've ever been in. The plot, if novelized, would be a bit crap. But the characters and the action and some of the isolated sequences? Worth retelling and remembering.

    I've read a lot of books. Mostly science fiction and fantasy. I still enjoyed Mass Effect, and it wasn't primarily for the cludgy, repetitive mechanics of the first game. That's great if you don't like it. You're welcome to bash it informally or provide analytic critique. That doesn't make you the arbiter of taste and quality. I think of it this way: it's not about lowering the bar because game stories are awful. It's about changing the requirements because games are a different medium that tells stories differently. Mass Effect tells a pretty good game story--not because it's "good enough for a video game" but because it works well as a story draped about it's particular mechanics. I have plenty of issues with the Mass Effect story, by the by, so I don't so much disagree as dislike your tone.
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  17. #117
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's GTA V. It's a piece of advertising targeted at people who know what a GTA game is. As such, they'll already know what to expect from the gameplay, at least in terms of genre. It's a piece of marketing that succeeds at marketing to people it's trying to market too.

    Yes, it's a fucking disaster at telling people who have never heard of GTA before what GTA V is. But that's like saying an orange is a fucking disaster at being a hair brush.
    One of the golden rules of advertising is that you make it absolutely clear everyone knows exactly what product/service you're selling. Otherwise you're cutting out a chunk of a larger possible market and that's a big no-no.
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  18. #118
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    One of the golden rules of advertising is that you make it absolutely clear everyone knows exactly what product/service you're selling. Otherwise you're cutting out a chunk of a larger possible market and that's a big no-no.
    I think the prime directive is to spread awareness of the product through the most efficient channels available, build hype with the base if one exists (get the word of mouth churning) and just keep getting the product out there. Putting out various trailers, some of which don't explain the mechanics at all (what most publishers seem to do) still mobilizes the base into a hype machine. A lot of people are familiar with the GTA brand; I'm sure they want new players who aren't even slightly aware of it's existence, too, but with a name that big getting people who have never heard of you to pay attention probably isn't that big a deal.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  19. #119
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    Also, Singularity Chess:
    Dear god ... it's beautiful. I must have it! Chess still has some of my favorite game-mods of all time. This goes a long way to keeping that true. :D
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  20. #120
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    One of the golden rules of advertising is that you make it absolutely clear everyone knows exactly what product/service you're selling. Otherwise you're cutting out a chunk of a larger possible market and that's a big no-no.
    That is absolute utter crap. So many advertisement campaigns go the total opposite way of telling people what the product or service is about.

    Guinness are well known for having ads that have essentially nothing to do with their drink, which are much more known for being weird and cinematic and eye catching, and would have their logo right at the end. What does and irish drink have to do with the image of a surfing wave turning into horses? Nothing, but you're going to stop and look at it if you see it. Tells you nothing of the taste of the drink, the type of people who drink it.

    The United Colours of Benetton ran years worth of campaigns that had absolutely nothing to do with their clothes, but would have their logo on the billboard. What does a new born (and I mean just born) baby have to do with chinos? Nothing. But you've seen it and you'll remember the ad and remember the company.

    Apple ads tell you almost nothing about what you're getting, most of the time they're going to say something like "It's arrived" and show the product. How much memory will I get with the new generation iPad? The ads on tv aren't going to tell me, but I might wander by an Apple store and go in to enquire, only to have one of their sales people sell me the wonders of owning an iPad.

    So no, the GTA V ad doesn't fail because it doesn't get directly to the point of "This is a video game in which you will steal cars that handle like shopping trolleys and shoot people and eat hot dogs to regain health and slowly move from one island of missions to another island of missions". Because that would be a crap trailer. But it does tell you this is a story that you might be interested in, buy our game!

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