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  1. #141
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    The Internet. A place where you can act like you know everything about any topic even though you are talking out of your ass.
    You don't know NOTHING about the internet!

  2. #142
    Lesser Hivemind Node SirDavies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    You don't know NOTHING about the internet!
    Of course I do, The Internet is a global system of interconnected computer networks that use the standard Internet protocol suite (often called TCP/IP, although not all applications use TCP) to serve billions of users worldwide. It is a network of networks that consists of millions of private, public, academic, business, and government networks, of local to global scope, that are linked by a broad array of electronic, wireless and optical networking technologies. The Internet carries an extensive range of information resources and services, such as the inter-linked hypertext documents of the World Wide Web (WWW) and the infrastructure to support email. Most traditional communications media including telephone, music, film, and television are being reshaped or redefined by the Internet, giving birth to new services such as Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). Newspaper, book and other print publishing are adapting to Web site technology, or are reshaped into blogging and web feeds. The Internet has enabled and accelerated new forms of human interactions through instant messaging, Internet forums, and social networking. Online shopping has boomed both for major retail outlets and small artisans and traders. Business-to-business and financial services on the Internet affect supply chains across entire industries. The origins of the Internet reach back to research of the 1960s, commissioned by the United States government to build robust, fault-tolerant, and distributed computer networks. The funding of a new U.S. backbone by the National Science Foundation in the 1980s, as well as private funding for other commercial backbones, led to worldwide participation in the development of new networking technologies, and the merger of many networks. The commercialization of what was by the 1990s an international network resulted in its popularization and incorporation into virtually every aspect of modern human life. As of 2011 more than 2.2 billion people—nearly a third of Earth's Human population—used the services of the Internet. Also, forum trolls. The Internet has no centralized governance in either technological implementation or policies for access and usage; each constituent network sets its own standards. Only the overreaching definitions of the two principal name spaces in the Internet, the Internet Protocol address space and the Domain Name System, are directed by a maintainer organization, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN). The technical underpinning and standardization of the core protocols (IPv4 and IPv6) is an activity of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), a non-profit organization of loosely affiliated international participants that anyone may associate with by contributing technical expertise.

  3. #143
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Did you...

    Did you just quote Wikipedia?

    Holy balls we're getting back to the basic fundamentals of trolling, here. Bravo, sir. Bravo!
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    That's a part of my point - it's not good advertising because it's only targeting very specific people when there's more potential buyers out there.

    I didn't say it won't work now, but it probably won't in the future when the previous customers stop buying and they need to attract new ones.
    Yep, but you start with the base, and expand out. Look at the GTA 4 TV advert for instance: the focus is very different.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVZ8b75w6vM

  5. #145
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    What's the fuller context? Is he saying no one should bother with trying to write good stories for video games? Because that's the same faulty logic people used for movies at one time - "We have books, why do we need moving pictures?"
    He gave a talk at the GAME conference where his stated goal was to work through these ideas in public in order to understand them better: conversation as the friction that polishes an idea.

  6. #146
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    As I've said, a clearer and more precise concept is easier to understand, evaluate, and discuss. At this point, most people use the term 'game' out of lazy convenience. It usually means no more than 'a thing I watch and listen to on my TV/monitor that requires my input', yet the stark contrast between some of these 'games' is apparent.

    Instead of using the word sweepingly, it'd be more helpful to define different types of electronic entertainment differently and use a more concise vocabulary to judge them accordingly. Ethereal thoughts have no place in a critical conversation.

    I blame New Games Journalism.
    I blame human nature. Virtually all disciplines where rigorous thought is required end up having different definitions of words then those used by common folk because they require exactness. The utility in doing so isn't readily apparent to the uninitiated however, and so is easy to disparage and ignore.

  7. #147
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Yep, but you start with the base, and expand out. Look at the GTA 4 TV advert for instance: the focus is very different.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVZ8b75w6vM
    I see similar things between that and GTAV's video:

    Exposition
    Cityscape
    Exposition
    Cars
    Exposition
    Cars
    Gunfire
    Cars
    Gunfire
    Exposition
    Gunfire

    And by that I knew I would be

    a) Driving in cars
    b) Shooting things
    c) Sitting through cutscenes

    And lo and behold!
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  8. #148
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I think the prime directive is to spread awareness of the product through the most efficient channels available, build hype with the base if one exists (get the word of mouth churning) and just keep getting the product out there. Putting out various trailers, some of which don't explain the mechanics at all (what most publishers seem to do) still mobilizes the base into a hype machine. A lot of people are familiar with the GTA brand; I'm sure they want new players who aren't even slightly aware of it's existence, too, but with a name that big getting people who have never heard of you to pay attention probably isn't that big a deal.
    the prime directive of marketing is increasing sales. obviously the marketing people at r* dont think gameplay is a selling feature of gtav. i'm guessing they are right.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    the prime directive of marketing is increasing sales. obviously the marketing people at r* dont think gameplay is a selling feature of gtav. i'm guessing they are right.
    It's not out for six months. There will be other trailers and gameplay videos. They're currently just building hype.

  10. #150
    Lesser Hivemind Node SirDavies's Avatar
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    To say something actually relevant to the discussion, I think Rockstar know exactly what they are doing. Their ad campaigns for Red Dead Redemption and L.A. Noire were practically identical, and it's a format i really enjoy and I think it works really well. It goes like this:

    -3/4 of a year before release: Announcement and teaser trailer/screenshots

    -1/2 of a year before release: Debut trailer that shows the setting of the game and the main characters, very cinematic. (example 1, example 2)

    -Every week/two weeks in the 2 months before release: Series of gameplay videos that explain most relevant aspects of the game (mostly gameplay and story/setting) in a clear, organized way, being informative and also making sure the game stays on the headlines of all gaming websites. (example1.1, 1.2, 1.3, example2.1, 2.2, 2.3). This also comes with more traditional 1 minute trailers.

    -Finally, the release day trailer (example 1, example 2)

    So, yeah, I think they know what they're doing.

  11. #151
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    the prime directive of marketing is increasing sales. obviously the marketing people at r* dont think gameplay is a selling feature of gtav. i'm guessing they are right.
    Right. You can think the prime directive is to directly increase sales and I can think the prime directive is to increase sales indirectly by spreading product awareness, building hype, and generally marketing. You aren't wrong, but I feel my answer is both more precise and accurate. Their directive is to increase sales! Did they increase sales? It's sold zero copies? Shame on you marketing! Or maybe we should wait a bit to find out ... (six months later) gosh we've waited a bit and we just don't know how much the marketing increased these sales. Maybe we're doing it wrong, or maybe that's not the main goal of marketing (snark aside: maybe they ARE doing it wrong, and somewhere along the line marketing departments across the globe confused brand recognition geared toward useful contexts with any brand recognition whatsoever no matter how divorced from commercial context).

    I think Rockstar is going to be ok, and I doubt the trailer is going to do them any harm. Just keeping a game with the brand recognition of Rockstar and GTA specifically on everyone's radar? That's powerful enough.

    But then again, maybe none of this is actually important.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 01-12-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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    You ruined his point by putting it in context that’s cheating -bull0

  12. #152
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    In a few years....
    - What's your hobby ?
    - I watch video games.
    pass

  13. #153
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    That makes no sense. How do you sell a game of something to someone who has never played the previous games based on "their knowledge of playing the previous games". How has Activision managed to sell, year on year, MORE copies of the newest version of CoD? Are their fans that loyal to them that they're buying multiple copies to inflate the numbers?
    Advertising. Actual, real advertising, not just a 20 second video that was edited by a chimp on speed that tells you nothing but "Hey here's another game in this series!"
    Virtual Pilot 3D™ NEVER NOT SCAM!

  14. #154
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Advertising. Actual, real advertising, not just a 20 second video that was edited by a chimp on speed that tells you nothing but "Hey here's another game in this series!"
    You really don't understand where the hype machine comes into play and why "fake" or "pointless" advertising comes into play by generating awareness and hype do you?

    Additionally as Nalano said and SirDavis demonstrated, if you watch a trailer for a game and you can't figure out what it's about (lets say red dead redemption) then you're a moron. You must be assuming everyone is a moron.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    In a few years....
    I think this year I've spent more time watching LPs than actually playing videogames.

  16. #156
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You really don't understand where the hype machine comes into play and why "fake" or "pointless" advertising comes into play by generating awareness and hype do you?

    Additionally as Nalano said and SirDavis demonstrated, if you watch a trailer for a game and you can't figure out what it's about (lets say red dead redemption) then you're a moron. You must be assuming everyone is a moron.
    The hype machine only works when there's people who already know what the product is if you're not actually telling them that. You really don't understand how this ad would look to a person who doesn't know what GTA even is do you?

    And Nalano said other people would fill in the blanks, not that'd you immediately recognize it as a game. The only moron is you sir.
    Virtual Pilot 3D™ NEVER NOT SCAM!

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    You really don't understand how this ad would look to a person who doesn't know what GTA even is do you?
    No, but I also don't know how someone who doesn't know what GTA is would ever see this add outside of the context of someone telling them what GTA is.

  18. #158
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Look no further than Brink to see how important a good story is in a game. Does Brink have a good story ? It does. Visuals ? Check. Sound ? Pretty good. And it's a commercial flop.

    A rule of thumb to check if something is a good game:
    - if you like to play it despite story and despite graphics, only good mechanics can explain why you're doing it. For me such games are Star Wars Racer and Neuroshima Hex. I don't care about Star Wars, in fact I find it hard to enjoy space opera as opposed to hard SF. But I liked to play Star Wars Racer and finished it one or two times. Neuroshima Hex has an extremely corny, post-apocalyptic setting with super mutants and soldiers who look like they eat testosterone for breakfast. Every beast has more claws and fangs than a zerg from SC 2. But it does play great, and has unique and fun mechanics.

    (You can play the boardgame online for free here http://online.neuroshima.org/ )
    pass

  19. #159
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    Look no further than Brink to see how important a good story is in a game. Does Brink have a good story ? It does. Visuals ? Check. Sound ? Pretty good. And it's a commercial flop.

    A rule of thumb to check if something is a good game:
    - if you like to play it despite story and despite graphics, only good mechanics can explain why you're doing it.
    My own experience falls in line with this as Mario Galaxy 1&2 are my favorite games, despite the story & the graphics being naf.

    I do remember reading a couple of stories about how much effort was thrown at the gameplay mechanics of Halo and COD by their respective development teams, and how the 'feel' of combat was the most important thing, although I haven't played either game series. WoW is another example where highly refined gameplay trumps all. On the other side, SWOTOR died because it was story based with bad gameplay, I believe.

    Nonetheless, I'm guessing that the 'story and spectacle' method of developing a game works well enough to be profitable. Otherwise, we wouldn't be seeing Asscreed3, gtaV, etc.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    His reasoning boils down to "I didn't like it, so nobody should try."

    He's full of shit.
    This is a horrible misinterpretation of his logic. He does make the observation that all game stories are complete shit, but I don't think he'd be opposed to a good game story. I read him as suggesting that the industry shouldn't bother with that, though -- it should focus on doing what it does best: interactivity.

    From his perspective, which I think is the right one, a game company trying to implement a good story while preserving solid interactivity/gameplay is like a non-English speaker trying to write fiction. Possible, but not playing to strengths.

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