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  1. #761
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    I guess secret prototype is my fault for the first invite. back when we didnt know he was a needy bugger.

    I do take objections against any kind of behavioral code except being excellent.

    also, we should always be able to have a casual contingent of players. not just turn into hardcore tactics mode. I need to do my arnie impression damnit!
    - Tom De Roeck.

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    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  2. #762
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    This is not about anything hardcore or tactical or anything of the sort and can people please just stop assuming that as soon as I say anything.

    What other behavioral code has been proposed? Nothing. Be excellent is the one. Secret wasn't. What is the problem? We have had a couple of players that were not excellent now, but rather pretty annoying. How is that another code of conduct at all?

    We have a casual contingent of players, it's called Rock Planet Shotgun. How is this changing? We just need to tighten down invite privilegies since it doesn't work that everyone can invite but 10 or so people need to take resposiblity if someone isn't excellent even though these 10 did not invite. Do you see the disparity here?
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  3. #763
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    Yes quantacat, nothing wrong with being casual, heck I like playing casual quite a bit. Nor do we need any other rule then being excellent. It is just as ridebird says, we cant have everyone invite randoms as clearly is the case. Nor will anyone blame you on inviting SecretPrototype before. None of us knew what he was like.

  4. #764
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Anyone random can join as long as they follow the procedure that we all agreed upon. If they then prove to be not excellent it is an easy call to make, and we can also discuss with the person about their not excellent behavior.
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  5. #765
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    no no, I was sortof referring to JG Man's suggestion for having a code. I thought it was under active discussion.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  6. #766
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    I am not sure if it is. Wibbster will put up something along those lines, or it could just be how we should deal with those situations.
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  7. #767
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    Perhaps all members shouldn't be able to invite, tho it seemed like that was what calf rank was for - so that unknown newcomers couldn't immediately cause problems.

    If there is a stream of invites, obviously there is something wrong. Don't suppose anyone found out which standing member was inviting (by asking one of the newcomers who invited them maybe)? Chain-inviting by random newcomers shouldn't be possible, they shouldn't be promoted to Giraffe until you know they're not an arse (even if that is just means them playing for an evening with the group).

    Basically, it seems that there should already be some safeguards against this. If it really is an issue tho, perhaps limiting invites to BLs/beacons would be better, since there isn't always a BL online in the middle of the day to invite. 'Be excellent to each other' seems like all the code we need tbh.

  8. #768
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    I am fully for that being all the code we need if we have better means of controlling invites as it works well. But we have still had these situations arise now and that's why Wibbster, Esoteric and others - not only me - thought having a set way on how we deal with those situations is most fair and best for all, rather then that we just sort of randomly decide and someone gets shit for it. Like with Secret last time - all were in agreeance that spoke up, I kicked him since no one else wanted to do it. Cue me getting shit on the forum and in-game which was no fun at all. With a set of procedures and a way to deal with that situation it could have been avoided, and no, it is no fun 1. kicking people 2. getting shit for it.
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  9. #769
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    I thought we where in agreement last time concerning SecretPrototype, I dont remember any of the PL's complaining at that point.

  10. #770
    Lesser Hivemind Node Feldspar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepper View Post
    Hmmm, the user management is indeed horrendous, how do bigger outfits handle it?
    We are the bigger outfit, that's the problem. You can either go stricter, but that means running the platoon becomes virtually a full time job and I don't think anyone wants to do that or it fits with the outfit as a whole, or looser, but everyone is advising against that.

    I don't have any new answers, all I can suggest is that if anyone is annoying you on Mumble, then make sure that it's not just you in a pissy mood (I suffer from this, people can annoy me from no fault of their own), locally mute them and the problem may go away. On Stratgir coms petition the PL, explaining what the problem is and that you would like to be moved to a different squad to avoid causing any ructions. If you have a consistent problem, then have a word with other people to see if they feel the same way, from that you should be able to see if the problem is with you or them.
    Last edited by Feldspar; 24-03-2013 at 03:29 PM.

  11. #771
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    Fair enough, kicking procedure could be helpful.

  12. #772
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    MrDSlayer invited SecretPrototype to the outfit.

  13. #773
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    I would think MrDSlayer did not know about the protocol, as most people do not read the forum. This is why we must limit inviters.

    --

    On a totally other, unrelated sort of ego note (sorry):

    I don't mean to start drama or be a total dick, but I feel a bit of the fun in this outfit is being taken out for me and I must say this. It seems like every opinion/idea I express is instantly dismissed as elitist or pushing for a hardcore approach, without people actually reading or listening. This is not only what I wrote above here. I have been feeling this way for a couple of months.

    I have become a symbol for the hardcore approach and it seems that people just dismiss it as that. It also seems that people see everything I propose or do as an unfair power grab when it is stuff we have discussed before. I don't particularly enjoy that people seem to view me like this, but I can understand why.

    The reason for this seems to be because I am almost always the one to start discussions regarding tactical play and such. Which is fine, but when people cut you off without listening to what you're saying it goes from frustrating to me wondering about wether I should be in this outfit at all. I am quite tired of having to explain every single opinion I state as NOT simply pushing for a more hardcore approach.

    Please, I do not want to attempt to turn this in to The Enclave and I have no intention of anything of the sort. When I bring stuff up I only intend for it to make us a better outfit, and yes, I do think we are quite large and mostly our own entity. We should be able to discuss and decide based on what's best for the outfit itself. I guess this is what many view as hardcore our moving away from our stated purpose.

    I apologize for taking a lot of space quite a lot of the time, and I am sorry for being pushy about issues that I feel are important.
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  14. #774
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    It seems like every opinion/idea I express is instantly dismissed as elitist or pushing for a hardcore approach, without people actually reading or listening.
    Don't do that to yourself.

    It's really simple: You pick up the leading of the outfit because you care. So, do it your way. If people don't like that, they're free to lead themselves. But we know from experience that "Who wants to be PL" generally works better at clearing comms than "Break, break".

    People think changing outfit invite rights is an unfair power grab? Let them deal with kicking assholes. It's a bit of a threat, but in general if I have to do it, it's happening my way.

    You preferring to sit in squad or 2squad sized comms channels does not mean other's can't sit in their big channel. You could start with "Ok, this is a bit too noisy for me, I'm starting a squad in an other channel, anyone care to join?"

    I'd join. You're a) a good leader, and b) not annoying. I don't need anything else. There are people in this outfit who just annoy me. It's likely others find me annoying. Squad play is great for me to get away from those people, and those people away from me.

  15. #775
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Sure, but it's no fun being That Guy that says "fuck y'all, I'm leading". Nor is it productive. It is also not something I am comfortable with. All I want is for my opinions to be discussed and thought over, not instantly dismissed based on prejudice based on my previous actions. I fully understand why that may happen, but it is really no fun at all. I also don't think people mind me leading in-game, so I am not too worried about that part.

    Too explain what I'm trying to get at with the overall message, I often feel our lack of organisation and set standards have caused completely unnecessary drama or mistakes. Moving forward, it would be wise to try to avoid that.

    It also seems a large majority personally feel that us moving forward should be as an outfit rather then as a game club for RPS, since we are in all organisational sense our own entity. The fear I have heard on this issue from those same people is that people do not want to move away from RPS in any sense based on the stated original purpose of the outfit. I think we are at a point when we need to discuss that.

    With that said I don't think we should move away from RPS at all. I just think we shouldn't hinder ourselves on what's best for the outfit - such as inviters doing the kicking - based on our status as the official RPS outfit. I don't see Jim coming in and being the boss. Rather, we are our own bosses and this is our thing at this point.
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  16. #776
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    SecretPrototype has left the outfit again (by being kicked). Please don't reissue any invites for him. Also, i do think that the inactives need to be dealt with. We have a pretty accurate 'last seen on' list on PSU, and i'd suggest that everyone who logged in in december (or jan), and is still under BR10 should be kicked. Anyone that falls in that category clearly didn't enjoy the game enough to stay, and there's no reason to keep them on board, when getting back in is no problem at all.

    Edit: this is our roster, sorted by last logged in: http://www.planetside-universe.com/o...&sortorder=asc

  17. #777
    Network Hub laldy's Avatar
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    I also would like to make clear that you have my full support Ridebird.

    It dismays me to think that there appears to be division over imputed/ attributed attitudes. Even if comments on "Elitism" or "hardcore" are meant in jest, they become wearing after a while, and annoying very shortly after that. I beginning to think that participating in the forum is becoming de facto necessity, if only so that people are up to date on the state of play in recurring discussions and so that BL volunteers don't have the same discussions again and again in the middle of a firefight or conferring about what to do next, when up to 47 other people are waiting for instructions.

    No-one is forced to be a member of a platoon, no-one is forced to accept anyone's leadership. You can even research a BL's leadership philosophy in http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/foru...rious-leaders! so that you can make an informed decision. The option is always open to a member to form their own platoon/ squad irrespective of outfit titles.

    Having joined a platoon with a leader, and decided to stay there, then please give the BL a bit of respect, if you're in their platoon they should be able to rely on players following directions, and a complete lack of snide comments from players Starting discussions and debates is something to do through the forum, not in the middle of platoon activities, casual or otherwise.

    Even if you decide to stay in platoon with a leadership you don't really want to follow, remember you can always volunteer to take over when the current BL/SL steps down.

  18. #778
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    Sure, but it's no fun being That Guy that says "fuck y'all, I'm leading". Nor is it productive. It is also not something I am comfortable with. All I want is for my opinions to be discussed and thought over, not instantly dismissed based on prejudice based on my previous actions. I fully understand why that may happen, but it is really no fun at all. I also don't think people mind me leading in-game, so I am not too worried about that part.
    Yeah, I've had a few drinks (it's my birthday!), so that came out a little bit harsher than I meant.

  19. #779
    Network Hub Grible's Avatar
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    I kicked SecretPrototype with general consensus. He didn't do anything particularly bad, but he was unable to find the forum, or mumble and was starting to get a bit "troll-y" feeling. If he reappears on Mumble then we deal with that then, till then don't invite him back on board. I'm not generally in favour of kicking without a "disruptive" reason, abuse, ignoring orders etc. But after about 10 minutes of coaching from me and Wriggly, no joy.

    More generally - I think the general feeling on these boards - which to be fair are a limited sample of mostly regular types - is that we don't invite unless the person says on mumble "Hullo, can I get an outfit invite". Lets try sticking to that huh?

    We have a Calf rank - lets let people sit in it for a couple of sessions, it does no harm and has no limit except invite privileges. I would also suggest that "Calf-ing" ie reducing people from Giraffe back to Calf is a better option than straight kicking for people who haven't logged in in a while. I did chuck that out there once before but it wasn't really taken up.

    As to Ridebird being the "MilSim Guy" I know I poke fun but frankly you are the only one who regularly takes the giraffe by the horns, and I enjoy you leading, you shouldn't be afraid to step up. We've clashed in the past, and probably will again, but you are good at leading and I don't think you should feel hindered or alone out there. Try not to take it personally!

    If moving forward as an "Outfit" means getting a tiny bit more "professional" then I don't personally have a problem with it. What does that entail?

    Training?
    a Fixed comms setup and comms procedure?
    Set "moves" for taking a base/area?
    Squad internal co-operation? Covering each other, breaching rooms, staying together, load outs?

    I'm fine with most (all) of these things.

    If some people have issues with some other people "grabbing power" then surely the solution is to talk it out, and try very hard not to take offence. There has been a lot of "the majority feels" kind of talk going on recently, if that is true then it should be obvious from any outfit conversations.
    As long as we are an open to all RPS readers social club then we can't (and IMHO shouldn't) prevent anyone from joining. We can (and have) required voice comms, we could consider requiring more of our members. But who decides? I think these meetings are the first step towards a more structured outfit, lets let it mature.

    I personally suspect the vast majority of our regulars would like to get a bit more serious, we hate losing apart from anything. I also think there are a large number of people for whom serious implies less fun. Ergo any moves to more seriousness need to be made openly and carefully. Then there are the "casuals" for whom I suspect that training and all of this talk regarding comms, organisation, etc suggests that they might be asked to commit time and effort that they don't want to and that needs to be handled carefully too.

    Anyhow my 2c on two topics.

  20. #780
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Addresing two issues here:

    1) Outfit invites and procedures for maintaining a good atmosphere.
    Wibbster has been bumping a draft for handling members behaving in an unwanted member with me since the last few days, and that should come up shortly.

    Outfit invites must be regulated now that we have more than 780 members in the outfit, because not everyone can be expected to know of our policies and precedures. It is not unreasonable to limit this to balloon leaders, or at the very least giraffe beacons; people who are frequent, vocal, players, who have a presence in these forums. Having the same people able to invite, be the ones who have to do the kicking is really quite reasonable, too.


    2) The spirit/direction of the outfit
    I agree with Ridebird, that we should discuss the direction and the desired spirit of the outfit. As we have grown in size, our impact on the game has increased, and if we don't step up our game, the whole faction is going to suffer as a result. There are many leaders (ours and others') that often express great frustration at the difficulty of coordinating between outfits to achieve something, especially against the really well organised TR and NC alliances.

    Thankfully, RPS has been really good at this so far, maintaining a presence and often taking the initiative in leader chat. I sincerely hope that there is no one in RPS who has any issue with that.

    And I too think that we need a few more ground rules, to keep the outfit alive and healthy and to maintain decent standards. It will become a lot more work otherwise, for those who are most engaged with the outfit, such as Cooper and our regular leaders etc. Nurturing the RPS spirit is not at odds with improving our gameplay and our organisation, in my opinion.

    It might not even be a bad thing to open for splitting up between organised and casual play, whenever there's any "dissent" on any ordinary night? Also, Ridebird, if you feel a need for more ordered play but don't fell like being That Guy again, send me a tell if I'm online and I'll be him instead. I usually prefer organised play to messing about, though it might not always be a good time for me, with family and everything.



    Finally, I'd like everyone to be aware of the problems with written communication; it is very easy to read what's on your mind into what has been written. You don't get the visual cues, nor the tone of voice or any of the other things that make social interactions work IRL. This makes it easy to misunderstand or misinterpret the intended tone and purpose behind the words. So filter things an extra time before assimilating what you read on these forums. Thanks!


    Edit: I think Grible's post was very good and to the point. I agree on all points. Also want to pitch in with my full support of your efforts, Ridebird (in case that has not been apparent so far).
    Last edited by EsotericReverie; 24-03-2013 at 06:45 PM.

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