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  1. #821
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    TLDR: Short guide with mumble requirement if playing with the platoon, respect the PL without priority voice, follow orders and stick together, basic training yes/no?

    Glad to hear it

    It seems like most of our newer members like the more organised style of play, and I would say that I did as well when I was new. Alone this game sucks. Without some direction it sucks even more. I personally felt direction in the start was lacking quite a lot and I was running around like crazy trying to get a good feel for things, and mostly just going "uuuuh how the fuck do I get to the SCU" or being farmed in Eisa.And yes, VS needs more organisation.

    And those of you that do not feel like you want to talk or are afraid to - just do it anyway. We are fairly welcoming I'd say - more so then any other community I've been in - and I take pride in that. No one is ridiculed and there's no "bro-ish" atmosphere of "'avin a laugh m8" which generally means being an assholes to new members, picking on voices and such. That is probably our greatest accomplishment. So, for those that are accustomed to the general asshole nature of the Internet gaming crowd, join us and do talk - we are truly different.

    So, for more organisation - I think we should write a very short guide. This includes the general "be excellent" along with how we play and what you need, along with common terms and tactics we use. I don't think we should have basic training or such, but rather I believe the best way to learn is just being thrown in to it and have a guiding hand. In the guide we should also require mumble use if you play with the squad. I know we haven't before and this is not really a huge issue (almost all stick to mumble anyway), but I think you need it to get in to the game and to the outfit.

    Apart from that some standard comms rules should suffice as far as rules except "be excellent" go. This is pretty much that you don't interrupt the PL really, as I see that as our only problem. If we are going to split more, things as don't tell too many stories is not needed, since you can tell all the stories you want in a squad or in two squads.

    Another thing to add should be to follow orders to a certain degree, meaning if the PL says go here you go there and don't question it unless it seems totally wacky (i.e base is close to capping and PL didn't notice). We talked about fostering confident leaders and such, and one thing I gotta say there is that there are still plenty of people talking over PLs and not shutting up when the PL wants to speak.

    I really believe in not using priority speaker, because then the PL can't talk, tell stories or other stuff without drowning out others. I believe this is very bad for the atmosphere of the outfit and that it elevates the PL to an unnecessary level. Simply, we should instead respect our leader at the time and allow her or him to give orders and relay important stuff, and not interrupt. Personally, I can get very annoyed by people not shutting up when I give orders or constantly suggest other stuff and I have to tell them.

    This should not be needed, and I should not have to put on authority-voice-mode to get across (which I've had to do several times, especially on bigger one platoon nights). I think it's pretty easy to discern wether the PL is chatting casually and giving orders/being all important, and to allow the PL to do bot here we should not use priority speaker. If we just respect our leader and listen I think more people would offer themselves to lead.

    Now, for skill requirements and such. I think this is completely unnecessary apart from not being in the line of how we do things (as everyone has already said, just wanted to comment). PS2 is not really a game of personal skill. I do think we should provide training and require that you follow your leader, but that's it. I think a person with terrible aim and that has a hard time with shooters can do just fine and almost as well as someone that is good at shooters, if they stick with the squad, work together, and follow orders.

    That's why we should only try to make people stick together more and make sure they are moving with eachother, as well as looking out for what's going on and following orders. That's all that is needed. When writing this, I started thinking about training again, and perhaps we should offer basic training once a week? Or just generally a day where we just focus on sticking together and working together that is open for all.
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  2. #822
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    I want to add my voice to the call for more split comms.

    Ridebird's made this point a lot but I still think it needs repeating that this is a completely seperate issue from the casual / strat spectrum of a given night; the two were conflated when the outfit was much smaller and strat night was the only night on which split comms were needed / wanted.

    The point I want to add is that, on top of the issues of crowded comms leading to harder coordination and leaving no space for new / quiet players to get a word in, there's a more basic level on which busy comms changes how the game is experienced and played - at least for me, and I suspect others in the silent crowd.

    I don't talk much - at all - on Mumble, because my day job in the winter is 9 hours a day 6 days a week selling and managing holidays over the phone; I generally don't have the energy or wit at the end of a working day to sustain chat during zone-out-shooty time. But I have always listened attentively whilst playing, a few hours most every night since the beginning, and there is a pretty clear cutoff point around 24 players where my listening shifts from paying attention to what everyone says regardless, to tuning out 50% or more of what's being said and homing in on the voice of BL / SL / Sitreps.

    As the channel gets more and more crowded this becomes more and more pronounced. When we end up with 3 or 4 full squads in one channel my tendency is to zone out almost completely from comms, with the noticeable effect that my squad / platoon play becomes much looser; I miss orders from time to time and switch to relying much more on map checks to keep up with what we're doing. The chatter per se doesn't annoy me - I weirdly find the range of accents melding into white noise quite soothing - but it does change the feel of the game and the way I (and I think others) play it, to the detriment of what lifts this game so far beyond any other I've played when it hits its high points.

    It's obvious from listening that it's very hard for a PL to break through this. There are only a few of you that are assertive (and please be assured, those who are, it's a highly positive element of what makes you excellent PLs) enough to do it, and it's pretty obvious that the job's isn't particularly enjoyable. I think this will only become more of a problem as the outfit grows, through putting off grunts from stepping up to command, preventing the leader pool growing, and burning out / pissing off those who the job repeatedly falls on.

    TL;DR - moar split commz plz, busy comms is detrimental to game enjoyment and outfit growth in a lot of ways.

    Unrelated re. training - the small amount we've done so far has been excellent and constructive and I think we should push a regular night for this - perhaps in the same vein as Silly Mondays a time limited 2 hour session?

  3. #823
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    We lost Indar. TVA is still not working. We need to have a person on TS at all times.

    edit: I posted about this on TVA as well. From now on, I suggest we _always_ (at least at night) are on TS.
    Last edited by RIDEBIRD; 28-03-2013 at 03:22 AM.
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  4. #824
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    (EDIT: Read another post)

    Well, VS was always going to be hard pushed to take Indar with a seemingly decreasing population. Shame that the continent has been lost though. I imagine that's it till the next reset.
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  5. #825
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    Well there have been a few close calls on taking indar over the last 2 weeks, so I reckon its possible to at least kill the TR bonus even though its gonna be a bloody hard fight.

  6. #826
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Probably not. TRAM will hold it for as long as they want if we cant get TVA actually becoming an alliance.
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  7. #827
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    True, as it is pretty easy to rally fast and camp a base as soon as they get close to loosing it.

  8. #828
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    well .. regardless, let's aim for it. no point in giving up before the fight has started. tonight's strat thursday!

  9. #829
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    So, rather delayed thoughts to the discussion that's been going on in this thread:

    Leading stuff
    Countdowns are great (Galaxies from warpgate, dustoff in 2 minutes). Really gets people moving, and ensures you don't wait for people who aren't coming.

    Nagging is necessary. Just remember when you have something you particularly want doing, repeat the message. Emphasize the importance - because as a PL you do give out orders of varying importance (eg, core asking somebody to just have a look at something). And because as we've seen from previous discussions on the forums, a lot of players give in game sound priority over listening to mumble.

    Comms discipline

    Yeah, we have something of a problem here. Far too many people think it's ok to talk over leaders. And then won't shut up even when asked to. There was one particular day when Eso was leading and trying to give orders. He called for clear, but with his rather soft voice, nobody noticed. I called a much louder "BREAK" for him, and two people immediately took that as a chance to start telling stories. We need to emphasize that break/clear means STFU I think.

    General Outfity stuff

    I'm going to go and say we do need to still think about being the game club for RPS here, but that there is no reason at all that should dictate our play style. Being the RPS club really only means that we have a low bar for membership (basically, you come to us via RPS in one way or another, including seeing us ingame, going "who are those guys" and finding out), and we're always available to welcome new people (which means plenty of people able to invite, and being prepared to help out newcomers, and not blabbering "execute maneuver A23" at them and expecting them to get it.). It shouldn't have any baring on how we organize our voicecomms, how we operate in game (other than you know, not being dicks) etc.

    RIDEBIRD - I think you're perhaps being a little oversensitive. You have wound up with a (perhaps a little unfortunate) reputation as "Mr Serious Business". I can't say I've ever come across anyone on a regular night actually complaining about being given orders though. Nor do I think you need to be afraid of suggesting things, even if they do get shot down when brought up. Sometimes people are really up for something, sometimes the same suggestion will get shot down.

    There have been a lot of situations recently though, as I've been on, when it feels like we are trying to do too much with what little structure we have. Voices get drowned out, and we can't split forces in a way that is as effective as we need. Crews of vehicles can't communicate effectively. Etc. My growing hunch is that we should perhaps start considering comms by squad as the default rather than the exception - especially if we are going to start doing lots more squad level exercises as standard. (And I think drills are a great idea).

    An alternative to squad split all the while, could be to do more breakaways. So we can have a "main platoon" up, but people can (and do) reguarly break off the form spec ops airbourne squads, Close Air Support teams, armoured support groups, etc etc. Make this sort of thing a habit rather than an exception (challenge here is to avoid making things too cliquey mind).

    Also, I'd like to see StratGir be more than once a week. Give it a start and end time, so everyone can focus on attending within a certain timespace, so we can get regular doses of big, combined operations that can be so great. Because moving to more regular squad play isn't the same thing as the impressive force of the Strategic Giraffe Mass in action.

    Purple Wedensdays also needs some work. I genuinely don't think it's capturing the same feeling as the early days. I think there's some things that can be done about that, but it's also possible that the metagame on Miller has changed so that it doesn't work so well any more.

  10. #830
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    I think there's some things that can be done about that, but it's also possible that the metagame on Miller has changed so that it doesn't work so well any more.
    This. Very much this. The metagame on Miller now is one of combined arms, highly coordinated forces, of probing the enemy for the weak point, concentrating there, and breaking him. There is room for casual fun and giggles, but when in that mode, we must be prepared that there will be very little we can accomplish in any operational and strategic manner.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 28-03-2013 at 01:45 PM.

  11. #831
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    There was one particular day when Eso was leading and trying to give orders. He called for clear, but with his rather soft voice, nobody noticed. I called a much louder "BREAK" for him, and two people immediately took that as a chance to start telling stories. We need to emphasize that break/clear means STFU I think.
    Yeah, I think I know thw specific situation you're talking of here. I'm a fairly quiet person, normally. I tend to try not to make a lot of noise, moving carefully, not slamming doors, speaking softly. The latter is especially important, as I share my home with my family, and we have fairly little space to go around. So, yeah, a bit more respect for the leader would be appreciated.


    I also like the rest of your points (and MrEclectic's), and would also like to see squad comms become the rule rather than the exception, or at least a tolerance for splitting off one or two squads for focused play, such as spec-ops-style or air squadrons. I'll see if I can't take more initiative for this myself. The problem is finding the time and energy to just go ahead and do it.

  12. #832
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    By the way, I would also like to point out that the Hydraffe is dead, God rest her soul. A spread out platoon is a platoon out of the fight. By the time they get to concentrate, it is usually too late. We must instead coordinate and delegate secondary objectives to smaller outfits, focusing instead on pushing our advance and countering the enemy's. Once the momentum is lost in this game, so is the operation.

  13. #833
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    I want to raise a question in regards to split comms and wednesdays. I got on rather late yesterday (around 9:45 CET I think) and the wednesday madness was in full action. I think we had something like 30 - 40 members online, and the platoon had just split into four squads. Spirits were high and we had a great fight defending a tech plant for the NC after which we moved on to defending, then attacking an amp station.

    And in a way, it was a pretty nice evening. It felt like we did worthwhile stuff, we had some really nice fights and people were talking and having fun on mumble. To the point where orders got lost. I try to stay focused on what BL and my SL are saying, but I honestly found myself in a position where I hadn't heard any orders and stayed at the same position for five minutes (capping A at the amp station since it seemed like a good idea). Which got me wondering what the purpose of wednesdays are. Is it for everybody to get together and just play, with some minimal leadership? Is it so we can have a laidback evening of talking and having fun while playing around? Is it an evening in the week when everyone should be able to meet up and work as one massive group while playing?

    'Cause I honestly believe that there are too many of us in the comms on wednesdays for more laidback conversations with the occasional comment about stuff happening in game. There are simply too many people for it to work, and I tend to tone most of it out. So it might be better to do split comms (into two squads per channel) whenever there's, say, thirty or more of us.

    And I want to emphasize that I'm not saying that the current way we're doing it is bad. I'm just saying that I'm not really sure what we're trying to achieve, and if we're doing it in a particularly effective way. So want to see what people think about wednesdays, and whether split comms should be an option for them or not.

  14. #834
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    We considered splitting comms last night but I argued against it since we would move on as a single platoon again shortly after. Split comms has many advantages. But if it should be setup as default? No. Let the PL's and SL's decide if they wish to do so. I think not having split comms also lowers the bar for people to try and lead a squad/platoon.

    In general though, when you reach 3 full squads one should consider splitting it if comms become to noisy. Last night we still had quiet moments throughout the fight. The fact that the NC wasnt focusing on our efforts to split their territory probably helped with that.

  15. #835
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    CMaster: Again, it's not about in-game. It's been every single suggestion being shut down with "not in the spirit of the outfit" and "I prefer strategic, BUT.." and such things. That's why this needed to be said and I was also tired at going at it mostly alone. It just wasn't very constructive, but it still was pretty evident that we needed to discuss the overall philosophy and spirit so it's not a bad thing to for example suggest a split (remember the fight on Mumble over this? That's what I mean).

    Wednesdays are rather unruly and what can be said is generally just a shouty PL and random intel. I think we should split it in two channels. That way we have a big group but there should be more room for chitchat. As it is now I find thursdays much more sociable and story time-y then wednesdays.

    pepper/wiggly(right?): It is much much much harder to leader a whole platoon that is unruly and not organized that is constantly chatting. It is significantly easier to lead a squad on strat night. We again do not have real SLs in one channel play due to it being very conflicting and confusing, and to reiterate I think splits on regular nights should occur when we have squads all over the place and generally are playing more split. Yesterday at Xelas I think one channel worked just fine as we were only about 30 and were mainly working together.

    On wednesdays and such I think the only PLs that have had any real success is me, Quanta, Cooper and CMaster. See the pattern? We all are not afraid of using shout-mode to get orders and such across. I personally don't prefer this style of leading since you have to constantly speak louder and more assertive and essentially just run people over in Mumble. It would be much better if we had a bit more split comms (say 24 in one and 24 in one). If we want wednesdays to be chatty and more about socialising rather then succeeding and shooting stuff, I think it needs to be split.
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  16. #836
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    You are correct Ridebird, and we are in agreement then

  17. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    By the way, I would also like to point out that the Hydraffe is dead, God rest her soul.
    Maybe in the form we tried, but did anyone else notice the pattern a couple of nights ago when we were on Indar fighting the NC force that had got isolated in the SE corner of the map? They were in platoon or more force defending, we or the TR would push them out, a few minutes before overrun a couple of squads would slip away down one of the canyons and prep capture one of the other bases. They kept this up, and thus kept a sizeable blocking / diverting force active though cut off, for at least the several hours I was on.
    Last edited by protorp; 28-03-2013 at 06:10 PM.

  18. #838
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    Comms discipline
    I think we need to make a list of definitive terminology. Yesterday we were discussing how we mix-up way-points and beacons. It certainly wouldn't harm if we had a magic word to get people to listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Hoc View Post
    Which got me wondering what the purpose of wednesdays are. Is it for everybody to get together and just play, with some minimal leadership? Is it so we can have a laidback evening of talking and having fun while playing around? Is it an evening in the week when everyone should be able to meet up and work as one massive group while playing?

    'Cause I honestly believe that there are too many of us in the comms on wednesdays for more laidback conversations with the occasional comment about stuff happening in game. There are simply too many people for it to work, and I tend to tone most of it out. So it might be better to do split comms (into two squads per channel) whenever there's, say, thirty or more of us.
    We're going to need to re-evaluate this, clearly. Still, the aim of Wednesdays is an all inclusive, open environment for everyone to get stuck into. I think, however, that ideal was born originally at a time when the numbers were low enough that the problems we're encountering now were just non-existent. Remembering here that a lot of us had organised play-time during the beta, so a lot of the things we've been doing have been going on for some 6 months+.

    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    On wednesdays and such I think the only PLs that have had any real success is me, Quanta, Cooper and CMaster. See the pattern?
    But, but, but I was leading last night. Noooooo *runs off crying* oooooooooo...

    more assertive and essentially just run people over in Mumble.
    I generally agree with the rest of what you've said, but I don't see how this is a bad thing at all. You need to be assertive as a leader, otherwise that's how you start treading towards back-seat leading. It also inspires confidence in the platoon that you know what you're doing. I think I wrote it down here before, but a leader who is confident will rarely make a properly bad decision, at least in the eyes of the platoon.
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  19. #839
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protorp View Post
    Maybe in the form we tried, but did anyone else notice the pattern a couple of nights ago when we were on Inday fighting the NC force that had got isolated in the SE corner of the map? They were in platoon or more force defending, we or the TR would push them out, a few minutes before overrun a couple of squads would slip away down one of the canyons and prep capture one of the other bases. They kept this up, and thus kept a sizeable blocking / diverting force active though cut off, for at least the several hours I was on.
    Usually those are other outfits, coordinating with the main force.

    Generally, if we are to discuss tactics, operational doctrine and strategy, I suggest we move the discussion to the TVA forums.

  20. #840
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Actually I wasn't on when you lead last night JG, sorry.. I logged in and took over when you left. But I think you have shouty man capabilities as well? What I meant to say was that we really shouldn't have to just shout all the time, imo it does not foster a social session at all.

    I still think wednesdays should be the day new people can jump on and enjoy and learn, without many demands or requirements. I do not believe the best enviroment for this is one platoon one channel however. It is rather intimidating and it can be quite hard to even ask for an invite.
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