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  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    Context written before this point: SirHoc once said yes sir to me and I told him to stop, because that is really fucking weird. We are not military people and not crazy, so that should not be a thing we do.
    Wait... You did? I have absolutely no memory of this. Whatsoever. :P

    I will say this on occasion, but I assure that I say it in an ironic way when doing it (I have the tendency to say it to pretty much everyone, in pretty much every situation). I will continue to say it, changing my way of speaking is waaaay to much of a hassle, but you can be sure that I'm not saying in a militaristic way. I'm much to silly for that.

    (of course, if it really bothers someone: let me know via a tell or something, and I'll try to crush the desire to "sir" people)

  2. #1082
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Perhaps that was LaKroy! And okay, but you sounded very srs giraffe there
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  3. #1083
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    No worries, si-, ehr, I mean "mate". And yeah, Lakroy is a bit weird. (Kidding, kidding, don't kill me LaKroy!!!)

  4. #1084
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LaKroy's Avatar
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    Yes, I think I might have said "Yes sir" on some occasion (but I can't remember being told to stop). It was not meant in any overly serious or militaristic way, and if you find it "offensive" I can try to avoid it. I just want to try to apply a varied vocabulary.

    And don't worry SirHoc, I will surely find an opportunity to send some burning plasma of enlightenment straight to your dome some day.

  5. #1085
    Lesser Hivemind Node sinomatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    Just to re-iterate on a few things from last night in a matter-of-fact manner.

    2. I'd like to hope that I was clear in delivering orders, but if I wasn't, please call this out on me. I think the thing to bare in mind with the general chatter of where to go or what to do is that, unless it's the PL (or SL) saying specifically where to go AND moving the platoon way-point, ignore it. We obviously have an open comm system that enables chatter and discussion of strategy - I know I for one take advantage of this when not leading - but if you are not sure what to do, do call out your leader at any point. Apologies if anyone under me last night was unsure of direction.
    I just wanted to point out that I wasn't actually referring to you after being on the other night - it's something that I've found in general over the course of playing, I just finally got around to posting about it. I'd also like to say that most of the time it's fine and people are fairly clear, but it can just get a bit disheartening in those times where I turn around and find that I've missed the call to redeploy, or the transport taking everyone to the next area. This is very possibly more of a problem for me; aside from the busy comms, unclear mics and in-game distractions I a) am very unused to playing MMOs, b) have some health problems that makes it hard for me to concentrate and easy to get overwhelmed by everything that's going on. So apologies if anyone has thought I was willfully ignoring them in chat (or their orders) - I won't have heard what you said!

    Over time I imagine it'll eventually get easier, as I'll have a head start on what the hell is going on beyond my own gun barrel, and I'll be able to hone in on what is being said and respond much more quickly. And as you've said, I'm also trying to push myself to speak a bit more when I'm unsure (or to just ask questions in general), but jumping on the mic in a group doesn't come naturally, and I hate feeling like I'm butting-in to a conversation or talking over other people (and sounding like the lost eejit I am to boot). I'll try to do better on that front, but I'd also appreciate any friendly kicks up the arse should anyone notice that I've drifted off or lagged behind.

    As for comms, I like the sound of the 24 + 12 + 12, for what it's worth.

  6. #1086
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Even if that was a reference to me, I think it still was worth saying. Please don't ever feel like asking for a confirmation of order or direction is something you cannot do. This goes for anyone, by the way. Chances are when you ask, there may be someone else who is in a similar situation. There's also the chat which is noticed.

    With regards to your personal situation, maybe the smaller squad comms would be better for you? At least until you get into the habit of talking more?

    I want to say this as a general comment for those who want to speak but are perhaps afraid of doing so for whatever reason, something personal; the first time I properly spoke online was in playing WoW a few years ago. It was...an interesting experience, but one not too taxed by the game because during non-group situations, it was hardly action all the time. It was hard to break into the group, in terms of feeling 'safe' to contribute and not feeling like I was stepping over any sort of mark. It was then ages before I communicated with anyone in an organised set-up who wasn't already a friend. So, coming onto the RPS set-up, regardless of game, was hard. Same problems, but a new community and different feel to it. Still, I had decided to involve myself so I had to talk and, quelle surprise, nothing bad happened.

    After enough time you just get used to it, it becomes normal. It's a case of getting past that hurdle before the momentum of getting involved takes over. There will always be little things that might bother you, but the fact is is that most people will have a similar problem. Maybe you don't like the way your voice is heard (this is one of mine), or you're concerned that you'll say too much. Well, if it's the latter, you'll be politely informed to maybe cut back a little bit, but don't fret, it's part of the process of working out how the community communicates. And after a while you'll get used to talking and joining in this way. Maybe you can set yourself a challenge of, say, "Today I'll say hello to every person who joins and good night to every person who leaves" or "I'll tell this one story that's relevant/completely at odds but humorous and then not say any more".

    So for those of you who want to get involved speaking, you honestly have nothing to worry about. We've all been there and the only reason some are confident is because they've had the time to settle in and find their groove. You'll find yours, but you'll need to start it up first. Take smaller steps, but take them regular. Or go in all guns blazing, whatever you feel comfortable with.
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  7. #1087
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    I wish this game had raidwarnings or a clearer way to give orders.
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  8. #1088
    Activated Node Frengler's Avatar
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    So for those of you who want to get involved speaking, you honestly have nothing to worry about. We've all been there and the only reason some are confident is because they've had the time to settle in and find their groove. You'll find yours, but you'll need to start it up first. Take smaller steps, but take them regular. Or go in all guns blazing, whatever you feel comfortable with.
    It's always tough not only to speak up if you're somewhat shy but also to "break in" in an established group but as you say: give it time and it'll come. I'm personally already getting to know the different people and their personalities which makes me more comfortable. Yesterday was a great example - came home from work at 22 and expected no one only but to my great surprise there were 4 squads going, each in their own Mumble channel. I said more than I normally would (which still wasn't much but definitely an improvement) because I felt more comfortable with lesser people in the channel. As a sidenote yesterday evening was for me a super example of how awesome this game can be when played with an organised group. No idea how we did overall (was more busy making sure I functioned as an individual soldier within the group) but it was fantastically good fun.
    "Time is a companion, travelling with us on the journey of life, to remind us to cherish each moment as it will never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we lived."

  9. #1089
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    Well, I've killed you more than you've killed me Lakroy. So I guess that's fair. :P

    In regards to linguistic registers, I've been thinking a bit about a thing (as per usual ). When leading, I make abundant use of politeness. That is to say, instead of giving direct orders in the style of "Go there!" or "Pull magriders!" I give indirect orders. Stuff like "Let's do this." or "We're gonna move to this base, can someone pull a sunderer?" Because that's how I speak (I AM swedish after all, and I have to admit that I really like linguistic politeness as well). But I'm not sure if that's what's most effective when it comes to communicating orders.

    Sinomatic brings up that it's hard to hear orders sometimes, which I, as someone who gets caught in the moment from time to time, can relate to. Singling out the current leaders voice and then separating orders from normal chatter can be difficult, even for experienced players. If you're new to this complex, massive and strange game, I think it might be a huge problem. You're confused enough as it is, and I don't think it's good if orders are unclear as well.

    So, in order to make orders clearer, do you think it's better if they are formulated in imperatives? I especially want to know what any newer members think about this, since I gather most of the people who've been around for a while do thing on habit at this point (I know I do from time to time).

  10. #1090
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    I think imperatives work the best, followed by some polite acknowledgement of the effort. Ie, "Cover the south wall!" followed by "Good job. Thank you, guys". Imperatives have an urgency and are, well, imperative, so people respond faster. I know that it is hard, at least for me, because I keep fearing that I sound like an overbearing twat. But they work.

    Acknowledge what they do afterwards, because they're following the orders out of their own volition, they've put their trust and enjoyment of the game partly into your hands and they at least put some effort into it. Not because they have to obey you. There is a difference between following orders and obeying orders.

  11. #1091
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    To give you some feedback on your leadership Sir Hoc, you need to be more assertive and speak up. Be less polite. Raise the volume. Speak louder and like you have decided were now doing this.

    The way to give orders is to shout and give very simple objectives as well as a means to acheive them or to meet somewhere. I think it's every members responsibility to use the overlay and to recognize when the leader is speaking and giving orders, but it's also the leader's responsibility to be clear and give clear directions.

    I personally can find it frustrating to repeat orders because I have such a hard time to relate to the "getting in the zone" and such. I never really miss anything and when leaders speak I automatically listen. Perhaps we should preface orders with something as simple as "new orders are.."? That should be a cue to listen, because I do know I am the exception here. I think it has to do with how much of the game you have played as well - you learn to filter out things.
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  12. #1092
    Repeating orders a few times helps to make sure the message is received. It then becomes less about how it's said and is reinforced.

    If you aren't certain of the order, do ask for it to be repeated. I'm terrible at not paying enough attention to the orders, so I ask a lot!

    It also becomes harder to discern which orders relate to you if there's multi-squad tactics. This isn't the fault of anyone, it's just a fact of getting info across fast so we remain mobile. Repetition helps.

    tr;dr: Repeat, repeat, repeat

  13. #1093
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rei Onryou View Post
    Repeating orders a few times helps to make sure the message is received. It then becomes less about how it's said and is reinforced.

    If you aren't certain of the order, do ask for it to be repeated. I'm terrible at not paying enough attention to the orders, so I ask a lot!

    It also becomes harder to discern which orders relate to you if there's multi-squad tactics. This isn't the fault of anyone, it's just a fact of getting info across fast so we remain mobile. Repetition helps.

    tr;dr: Repeat, repeat, repeat
    Repeating orders in a tactical situation is often impractical. The pace is fast, so if the squad members aren't at the positions they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be, the opportunity will be most likely lost. Also, you drown out useful tactical feedback from the rest of the squad, so you don't have a clear picture of the situation, which may evolve in such a way as to invalidate the order. I find imperatives in a clear and concise manner to work the best. They convey information, directions and a sense of urgency in the most economical and efficient way.

    I also find that, if the situation allows for it, it really helps to give a rough outline of why you gave that particular order. Eg "We're approaching from here because they have limited visibility, and then we can get there where we will hold a better firing position".

    The above holds true in every tactical situation and is also applicable when organising movement and transport, although in the latter there is more time for repetition.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 10-04-2013 at 12:39 PM.

  14. #1094
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Regarding multi squad tactics and orders, that is something I find to simply not work. Hence compromise comms. PLs should keep AB together and C/D are already split.
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  15. #1095
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    Some PL/SLs just need a bit more... well oomph when they give orders. I know I do need to but many others need to do it as well. The PLs often lists all squads and their locations in a "normal conversation tone" which makes it very easy to miss or instantly forget what the PL said about Alpha as soon as Bravos orders come up.

    If PLs would try to do it a bit more structured:
    Alpha! "Yes?" RUST MESA!
    Bravo! "Listening" Help Alpha!

    etc. instead of the common "Well ummm alpha can you go to rust mesa and umm bravo can you try to help alpha there and well uuuuuhh charlie go to the north satellite?"

    When discussing what to do talk about it when giving orders, short clipped orders where you wait for acknowledgement between each squad. Should make it easier to distinguish orders from discussion and make sure we have less confusion.

  16. #1096
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Yes, and raise your mic volume. Some leaders have it very low. Regarding the more low key leaders I reckon eso could help out since he is low key but still clear and decisive. You don't have to shout to be heard.
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  17. #1097
    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Repeating orders in a tactical situation is often impractical. The pace is fast, so if the squad members aren't at the positions they are supposed to be when they are supposed to be, the opportunity will be most likely lost.
    I should've been more specific and said for the PL/SL strategic level. Strategic plans definitely need to be acknowledged (Alpha point A, Bravo point B... or can Bravo goto Sundie at waypoint), but as you say, when it comes to tactical - where things are faster paced and changing all the time - it doesn't apply.

  18. #1098
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    Yes, and raise your mic volume. Some leaders have it very low. Regarding the more low key leaders I reckon eso could help out since he is low key but still clear and decisive. You don't have to shout to be heard.
    On the one hand, I know that naming people is considered impolite. But on the other hand, I have no idea if any of the suggestions in this thread relate to me because I'm not being named.

    I don't presume to speak for everyone, but if any of this is about me I'd love to see my name being mentioned.

    I hope it's clear that while I am quoting Ridebird's post I only do so to illustrate the general feeling I want to quote and that I'm not specifically talking to or about Ridebird.

  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    I don't presume to speak for everyone, but if any of this is about me I'd love to see my name being mentioned.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this. General feedback is great. It's something that we're pretty good on as an outfit and that we should continue doing. But sometime you need more specific feedback as well. And I feel that we have an environment that's open enough for us to name people and give feedback as long as that person is ok with it. I know that not everyone is, but I appreciate all constructive feedback (including in-game stuff as well. If I get in your line of fire repeatedly, get in your way while flying or something else, feel free to send me a tell and call me out on it. I assure you that I'm not doing it on purpose, and the feedback'll help me learn when I'm doing something wrong).

  20. #1100
    Network Hub Orius's Avatar
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    The same goes for me, about anything and everything. I believe I know most of my own issues though, but feel free to reiterate or pinpoint problems. Can't improve without knowing your weaknesses first.

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