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  1. #21
    Activated Node Sproutmask's Avatar
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    I don't mind DLC too much - I can make my own mind up whether each particular one for a given game is worth it or not. I miss old-fashioned expansions to some extent, and it would be nice to see something of the scale and ambition of Dragon Age: Awakening more often, given the right game.

    The best single player DLCs I think are things like Lair of the Shadow Broker for Mass Effect 2, which gives Liara more of a role in ME2 (in vanilla she's just a cameo), has a nice tight story, some new environments and a fun boss battle. Rather than seeming short, it seems about right and adds something to the base game without overstaying its welcome.

    Meanwhile Paradox seem to have quite a good model for their main DLC packages of using them to finance ongoing support of their games. The CKII DLCs introduce new rules and game mechanics along with extra content so in the context of a more sandboxy game, they add replay value - this holds for things like Binding of Isaac and Dredmor as well I think. The shorter release schedule lets the devs be more responsive to what the fans want in some respects as well.

    So I think there are good ways to do DLC, and that it's all caveat emptor - it's up to us to decide not to buy if we think what's offered is poor value for money.
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  2. #22
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    The publishers and indies love the DLC model, and it's not just for the sales. They love it because:

    1. Say, a publisher released a new game/franchise called "Boo" (developed by a separate studio/dev).
    2. The development studio actually stopped active work a month or so ago before the release date so the team has nothing to do in the mean time (you don't need a 3D modeler or an artist to patch a game).
    3. The publisher assigns them to work on some meaningless cheap DLCs.
    4. After the sale figures are in the publisher can evaluate how the game did and what to do with the developer next. Should they work on "Boo 2"? Or move on, etc.

  3. #23
    Lesser Hivemind Node SirDavies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Have games companies got significantly more profitable since DLC became a thing? Because I keep seeing this argument but never see any evidence for it...
    I didn't say they were more profitable, I don't care if they are, but if there is an adjective to justify 15-dollar-meaningless-DLC it is "greedy". Whether that is profitable or not is out of my knowledge, but they keep doing it so it must be working to an extent.

  4. #24
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    The only DLC I have ever paid for is for the Borderlands games. Because their DLC is more like the expansion packs of yore instead of "a bunch of ideas we had while making the game but couldn't finish before the deadlines".

    The only real problem I see with DLC is the same with expansion packs - if no one else you play the game with has them then you're on your own. The things like "20 new hats" and "2 recycled maps from our previous game" are easy to avoid for now, but this may change in the future if idiots keep having so much disposable income.
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  5. #25
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    BF1942 without expansion packs had as many maps as bf3 WITH DLC.
    Add the mods (desert combat) and the myriad of vehicles and maps and weapons therein provided by the community (no mod support in bf3 because fuck you gamers) and you had more content than you'll get in bf3 and bf4 combined.

    But why give content for FREE (Hah if you nodded, you already paid 60 dollars for it) if you can sell it for an extra 50 dollars for it and enough idiots are still breathing to buy it from you.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Obviously we don't have sales figures and, as mentioned, shareholders are jackasses.

    But just use some common sense:

    Major publishers are still pushing the DLC model. If it were bad, they wouldn't be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    I didn't say they were more profitable, I don't care if they are, but if there is an adjective to justify 15-dollar-meaningless-DLC it is "greedy". Whether that is profitable or not is out of my knowledge, but they keep doing it so it must be working to an extent.
    It means revenue is increasing for sure. That's common sense. But where is that extra money going? If it's going into shareholder's or CEO's pockets then fair enough. But again, I'm not seeing evidence of that. It's equally likely that it's just going into the game development budget, to pay for the increased costs of development. Which doesn't seem greedy to me.

    By all means prove me wrong by showing EA's profits increasing year-on-year since horse armour was a thing...

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It means revenue is increasing for sure. That's common sense. But where is that extra money going? If it's going into shareholder's or CEO's pockets then fair enough. But again, I'm not seeing evidence of that. It's equally likely that it's just going into the game development budget, to pay for the increased costs of development. Which doesn't seem greedy to me.

    By all means prove me wrong by showing EA's profits increasing year-on-year since horse armour was a thing...
    I think it is more like any form of revenue. Much of it gets put back into the system to pay for (future) operating costs and salaries. And whatever is left magically increases stock prices because I have no freaking idea how the stock market works :p
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  8. #28
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    BF1942 without expansion packs had as many maps as bf3 WITH DLC.
    Add the mods (desert combat) and the myriad of vehicles and maps and weapons therein provided by the community (no mod support in bf3 because fuck you gamers) and you had more content than you'll get in bf3 and bf4 combined.

    But why give content for FREE (Hah if you nodded, you already paid 60 dollars for it) if you can sell it for an extra 50 dollars for it and enough idiots are still breathing to buy it from you.
    One of the reasons may be because making even short games with the production values people crave these days are insanely expensive. Games are now as, if not more expensive to make than major Hollywood movies.

    But there is still zero excuse for no mod support. So they are forgiven for nothing.
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  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    One of the reasons may be because making even short games with the production values people crave these days are insanely expensive. Games are now as, if not more expensive to make than major Hollywood movies.

    But there is still zero excuse for no mod support. So they are forgiven for nothing.
    Pretty much. Much more time consuming to make a map these days than it was during the BF1942 era.

    And the thing about mods:
    1. It has a sizeable cost in terms of development. You have to polish the crap out of your tools
    2. Modders don't really "do much" these days. The most talented individuals are using stuff like Unity and UEn to make their own games. Hell, go look at Skyrim. Yes, there are some really cool mods, but the vast majority are nude mods, sex mods, baby's first blender model (I like Blender, by the way), and assets stolen from other games.

    So all you are really doing is spending a lot of money on something that will make people superficially happy while benefiting the game only slightly. Not worth it.

    And before you say "if you give tools, they will come":
    UT3
    Crysis 1
    The Witcher 1
    NWN2
    Dragon Age Origins (I think that had a toolset?)

    All of those (except maybe DA:O, I forget) had VERY good support for mods. I suspect we can all count on one hand the number of "really good/interesting" mods made for each of them on one hand (Hell, I suspect you could get many of the games on the same hand).

    Even UT2k4 and Half-Life 2 started showing the decline in the modding mentality. Because now you need:
    A good idea
    The ability to code your good idea
    The ability to make models for your good idea that don't clash/look horrible

    So basically, you either need to be god (at which point, you realize you would rather make an indie game) or a dev team (at which point, you realize you would rather make an indie game).
    Last edited by gundato; 30-11-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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  10. #30
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    The funny thing about coders is they're much more determined and/or insane that most people. You could just leave some completely rudimentary mod tools about and someone, somewhere will figure them out and use them.

    And not as many of the Skyrim mods are just copy/paste jobs as you think. Most of the texture modders just took the basic design of something from another game as a blueprint and then they actually recreated the objects with their own custom-made textures.


    It's much easier and often gives better results for a team to work with an already-made game engine than make one by themselves.

    And the number of mods you see for a game is usually proportionate to how popular the game was. The Unreal games, Skryim and Half-Lifes were really, really popular. The Witcher and Dragon Age Origins were not as much. Games like Battlefield have a massive audience which would have probably led to some interesting ideas being kicked around by the code junkies in the crowd.
    Last edited by Shooop; 30-11-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    The funny thing about coders is they're much more determined and/or insane that most people. You could just leave some completely rudimentary mod tools about and someone, somewhere will figure them out and use them.

    And not as many of the Skyrim mods are just copy/paste jobs as you think. Most of the texture modders just took the basic design of something from another game as a blueprint and then they actually recreated the objects with their own custom-made textures.


    It's much easier and often gives better results for a team to work with an already-made game engine than make one by themselves.

    And the number of mods you see for a game is usually proportionate to how popular the game was. The Unreal games, Skryim and Half-Lifes were really, really popular. The Witcher and Dragon Age Origins were not as much. Games like Battlefield have a massive audience which would have probably led to some interesting ideas being kicked around by the code junkies in the crowd.
    And the most dedicated ones end up making indie games. Hence the 'splosion.

    And giving "rudimentary tools" is just begging for backlash. And it DOES increase costs, if only for testing/debugging and makings sure nothing proprietary is there.

    As for "They didn't copy-paste, they remade it": I don't really care if they remade Relic's models themselves, I have no interest whatsoever in Space Marine brand Power Armor in Skyrim. It clashes horribly. ESPECIALLY when it is low-poly and intended to be seen zoomed out.

    And you mention the unreal games: UT2k3/4 started to show the signs of "There really aren't many worthwhile mods" and it pretty much died with UT3.
    Half-Life 2 is INSANELY popular. The number of completed (meaningful) mods can be counted on two hands and a penis.

    And DA:O "wasn't popular"? Seriously...

    And ideas are great. But you missed the whole part about "It takes a crapton of effort and skill to implement those ideas". I spent a lot of time with the mapper and modder crowd with the original (and best) UT. There were PLENTY of ideas. There were very few that actually came to fruition. And that was back when meshes and textures were simple enough that anyone who tried could make something nice.
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  12. #32
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And the most dedicated ones end up making indie games. Hence the 'splosion.
    Many of which are not that great because they didn't make anything more than 2D sprites and text boxes. The nice thing about modding is some of your base assets are already there and you just need to manipulate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And giving "rudimentary tools" is just begging for backlash. And it DOES increase costs, if only for testing/debugging and makings sure nothing proprietary is there.
    How much? When they already spend millions just to get a voice actor to read 10 seconds worth of dialogue into a microphone, is it really that much more? The DLC thing makes some sort of sense only because it's a professional job that (usually) has to meet the standards of the rest of the game. Why would it cost about as much just read over the code again?

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    As for "They didn't copy-paste, they remade it": I don't really care if they remade Relic's models themselves, I have no interest whatsoever in Space Marine brand Power Armor in Skyrim. It clashes horribly. ESPECIALLY when it is low-poly and intended to be seen zoomed out.
    That's just one out of how many other mods? And this isn't about personal taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And you mention the unreal games: UT2k3/4 started to show the signs of "There really aren't many worthwhile mods" and it pretty much died with UT3.
    Half-Life 2 is INSANELY popular. The number of completed (meaningful) mods can be counted on two hands and a penis.
    Define for me "meaningful". If it's interesting enough to be entertaining for an hour or two I'd consider that meaningful because I may have not kept the base game on my HD for that hour or two more.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And DA:O "wasn't popular"? Seriously...
    I never said it wasn't popular. Don't make up quotes that don't exist.

    As
    popular as some other games, no. Of course it was popular enough to make a sequel of. But I didn't hear about it making as big of a splash as Skyrim. Bigger audience means a higher chance of people who like playing around with code playing it is what I'm getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And ideas are great. But you missed the whole part about "It takes a crapton of effort and skill to implement those ideas". I spent a lot of time with the mapper and modder crowd with the original (and best) UT. There were PLENTY of ideas. There were very few that actually came to fruition. And that was back when meshes and textures were simple enough that anyone who tried could make something nice.
    There's no reason anyone can't make something nice these days either though, especially considering there's free information about how to make textures all over the internet and free programs to make them. It's just a question of if anyone want to take the time to make them. And there will always be someone.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Even UT2k4 and Half-Life 2 started showing the decline in the modding mentality. Because now you need:
    A good idea
    The ability to code your good idea
    The ability to make models for your good idea that don't clash/look horrible

    So basically, you either need to be god (at which point, you realize you would rather make an indie game) or a dev team (at which point, you realize you would rather make an indie game).
    You just need a team.

    My UT2k4 folder was the first game folder that broke 10GB, and included maps, modes, total conversions and a ridiculous pile of very, very well-done models. A lot of them came from collaborations, not guys who only sleep one hour a week.

    A lot of those teams do actually become devs, so I fail to see the problem.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    And the number of mods you see for a game is usually proportionate to how popular the game was. The Unreal games, Skryim and Half-Lifes were really, really popular. The Witcher and Dragon Age Origins were not as much. Games like Battlefield have a massive audience which would have probably led to some interesting ideas being kicked around by the code junkies in the crowd.
    I'm not sure about that. NWN 1 had a huge modding community (and 2 actually did fairly well too, to contradict an earlier poster). DA:O was far bigger, but had far fewer mods.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Many of which are not that great because they didn't make anything more than 2D sprites and text boxes. The nice thing about modding is some of your base assets are already there and you just need to manipulate them.
    And Unity (and I think UE4?) have those asset stores they are pushing to further help.


    How much? When they already spend millions just to get a voice actor to read 10 seconds worth of dialogue into a microphone, is it really that much more? The DLC thing makes some sort of sense only because it's a professional job that (usually) has to meet the standards of the rest of the game. Why would it cost about as much just read over the code again?
    You DO realize that testing is much more than "reading over the code", right?



    That's just one out of how many other mods? And this isn't about personal taste.
    Seriously, go look at the steam workshop. I just picked an example I find particularly funny.



    Define for me "meaningful". If it's interesting enough to be entertaining for an hour or two I'd consider that meaningful because I may have not kept the base game on my HD for that hour or two more.
    So added costs so a few people can enjoy a game they don't like and won't buy the sequel of for "an hour or two more"? I realy hope you don't manage funds for any companies :p


    As
    popular as some other games, no. Of course it was popular enough to make a sequel of. But I didn't hear about it making as big of a splash as Skyrim. Bigger audience means a higher chance of people who like playing around with code playing it is what I'm getting at.
    And UT2k4 and HL2? They each had a few big mods, but were MUCH less modded than UT and HL1. And were MUCH more popular.


    There's no reason anyone can't make something nice these days either though, especially considering there's free information about how to make textures all over the internet and free programs to make them. It's just a question of if anyone want to take the time to make them. And there will always be someone.
    Which once again gets us to what I have been saying over and over.

    If someone has the ability to make beautiful models that fit the style of a game AND can code awesomely: They are awesome, probably want to make games "for real", and will go check out an indie solution.
    If someone has assembled a team of awesomeness, they are probably going to want to do something more meaningful than Star Wars in UT3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    You just need a team.

    My UT2k4 folder was the first game folder that broke 10GB, and included maps, modes, total conversions and a ridiculous pile of very, very well-done models. A lot of them came from collaborations, not guys who only sleep one hour a week.

    A lot of those teams do actually become devs, so I fail to see the problem.
    The problem is assembling a team. And coexisting with said team. Like Troopers for UT2k4 which was really fun and had a LOT of drama.

    But yeah, the teams become devs. The thing is: These days, the barrier to making something "from scratch" is much less. With a free-ishly available engine, all you need are ideas and assets (and a coder or two :p)

    But yeah, UT2k4 was probably the last great push of modding. But when you compare it to the original UT, it definitely showed the decay.
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  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    The problem is assembling a team. And coexisting with said team. Like Troopers for UT2k4 which was really fun and had a LOT of drama.
    Where there are people, there is drama.

    Again, I fail to see the problem.
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  17. #37
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    You DO realize that testing is much more than "reading over the code", right?
    If you're at the point where you can even make mod tools, then you're not really doing that much more strenuous are you? Coding isn't my thing, but I can't see how mod tools could actually break an entire game unless you coded something else very badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Seriously, go look at the steam workshop. I just picked an example I find particularly funny.
    I have, and that's the same with anything. Like DLC - how much made by the professional studio by paid programers and staff is actually worth paying for? How much of it is crap that very few people would actually want? What's the difference other than who made it and if you have to pay for it?


    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    So added costs so a few people can enjoy a game they don't like and won't buy the sequel of for "an hour or two more"? I realy hope you don't manage funds for any companies :p
    And there you go again quoting things that never existed before. Are you going to make a habit of that? I'm not even going to bother a response for this because it's borderline lying.

    And UT2k4 and HL2? They each had a few big mods, but were MUCH less modded than UT and HL1. And were MUCH more popular.[/QUOTE]

    Probably because they've been out longer and people understand them more. People are still making mods for them today simply because they can. Would you prefer they stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Which once again gets us to what I have been saying over and over.

    If someone has the ability to make beautiful models that fit the style of a game AND can code awesomely: They are awesome, probably want to make games "for real", and will go check out an indie solution.
    If someone has assembled a team of awesomeness, they are probably going to want to do something more meaningful than Star Wars in UT3.
    But sometimes they feel like testing the waters with their abilities and start small. Remember Dear Ester? Day Z? One was a college project and the other an experiment someone did in his free time. People don't charge for mods, they're doing it for free. They do it because they want to more than they want to get paid for them. Why take that option away from them especially since it's not denying them any other options?

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    The problem is assembling a team. And coexisting with said team. Like Troopers for UT2k4 which was really fun and had a LOT of drama.
    You mean the same problem people have working with each other in any situation? OH NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    But yeah, the teams become devs. The thing is: These days, the barrier to making something "from scratch" is much less. With a free-ishly available engine, all you need are ideas and assets (and a coder or two)
    There isn't any universal engine that does everything everyone wants. I don't think you can totally recreate Nightmare House 2 or The Worry of Newport from those engines.
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  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Where there are people, there is drama.

    Again, I fail to see the problem.
    Assembling a reliable team is a problem. Maybe you'll find some people, but they might leave. Or threaten to sue you/extort you/all the fun stuff that happened with Troopers.

    Without a team, you either need to be a super awesome bard (jack of all trades), which is not really practical for most people.

    Hence, problematic.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    I didn't say they were more profitable, I don't care if they are, but if there is an adjective to justify 15-dollar-meaningless-DLC it is "greedy". Whether that is profitable or not is out of my knowledge, but they keep doing it so it must be working to an extent.
    In the same vein, if one in 100 people follows the link in a spam, spammers make their money back.

    Quote Originally Posted by somini View Post
    I totally agree with the OP, but I think it's too simplistic.
    If a DLC costs 25% of the main game it should have a lot more that 25% of the content. Let's not forget that the engine and content creation pipeline are already in place, that 25% of work is going to content only.
    I think the main metric about DLC is just whether it's made in house or farmed out to some porting studio. I would say that most in-house DLC is good, but when it's farmed out it's really hard to have something worthwhile.
    I completely agree. DLC costs much less money to make, because all infrastructure and systems are already in place. It's only fair that it should cost less. Indie games already sell for much less.
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  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Assembling a reliable team is a problem. Maybe you'll find some people, but they might leave. Or threaten to sue you/extort you/all the fun stuff that happened with Troopers.

    Without a team, you either need to be a super awesome bard (jack of all trades), which is not really practical for most people.

    Hence, problematic.
    So, humans, who are social animals, are at a disadvantage when they work alone.

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