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30-11-2012, 02:10 PM #21
I don't mind DLC too much - I can make my own mind up whether each particular one for a given game is worth it or not. I miss old-fashioned expansions to some extent, and it would be nice to see something of the scale and ambition of Dragon Age: Awakening more often, given the right game.
The best single player DLCs I think are things like Lair of the Shadow Broker for Mass Effect 2, which gives Liara more of a role in ME2 (in vanilla she's just a cameo), has a nice tight story, some new environments and a fun boss battle. Rather than seeming short, it seems about right and adds something to the base game without overstaying its welcome.
Meanwhile Paradox seem to have quite a good model for their main DLC packages of using them to finance ongoing support of their games. The CKII DLCs introduce new rules and game mechanics along with extra content so in the context of a more sandboxy game, they add replay value - this holds for things like Binding of Isaac and Dredmor as well I think. The shorter release schedule lets the devs be more responsive to what the fans want in some respects as well.
So I think there are good ways to do DLC, and that it's all caveat emptor - it's up to us to decide not to buy if we think what's offered is poor value for money.There is nothing more powerful than a bad idea who's time has come...
30-11-2012, 02:16 PM #22
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The publishers and indies love the DLC model, and it's not just for the sales. They love it because:
1. Say, a publisher released a new game/franchise called "Boo" (developed by a separate studio/dev).
2. The development studio actually stopped active work a month or so ago before the release date so the team has nothing to do in the mean time (you don't need a 3D modeler or an artist to patch a game).
3. The publisher assigns them to work on some meaningless cheap DLCs.
4. After the sale figures are in the publisher can evaluate how the game did and what to do with the developer next. Should they work on "Boo 2"? Or move on, etc.
30-11-2012, 02:16 PM #23
30-11-2012, 02:23 PM #24
The only DLC I have ever paid for is for the Borderlands games. Because their DLC is more like the expansion packs of yore instead of "a bunch of ideas we had while making the game but couldn't finish before the deadlines".
The only real problem I see with DLC is the same with expansion packs - if no one else you play the game with has them then you're on your own. The things like "20 new hats" and "2 recycled maps from our previous game" are easy to avoid for now, but this may change in the future if idiots keep having so much disposable income.Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
30-11-2012, 02:24 PM #25
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- Jun 2012
BF1942 without expansion packs had as many maps as bf3 WITH DLC.
Add the mods (desert combat) and the myriad of vehicles and maps and weapons therein provided by the community (no mod support in bf3 because fuck you gamers) and you had more content than you'll get in bf3 and bf4 combined.
But why give content for FREE (Hah if you nodded, you already paid 60 dollars for it) if you can sell it for an extra 50 dollars for it and enough idiots are still breathing to buy it from you.
30-11-2012, 02:29 PM #26
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- Jun 2011
By all means prove me wrong by showing EA's profits increasing year-on-year since horse armour was a thing...
30-11-2012, 02:35 PM #27
30-11-2012, 02:43 PM #28
But there is still zero excuse for no mod support. So they are forgiven for nothing.Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
30-11-2012, 02:58 PM #29
And the thing about mods:
1. It has a sizeable cost in terms of development. You have to polish the crap out of your tools
2. Modders don't really "do much" these days. The most talented individuals are using stuff like Unity and UEn to make their own games. Hell, go look at Skyrim. Yes, there are some really cool mods, but the vast majority are nude mods, sex mods, baby's first blender model (I like Blender, by the way), and assets stolen from other games.
So all you are really doing is spending a lot of money on something that will make people superficially happy while benefiting the game only slightly. Not worth it.
And before you say "if you give tools, they will come":
The Witcher 1
Dragon Age Origins (I think that had a toolset?)
All of those (except maybe DA:O, I forget) had VERY good support for mods. I suspect we can all count on one hand the number of "really good/interesting" mods made for each of them on one hand (Hell, I suspect you could get many of the games on the same hand).
Even UT2k4 and Half-Life 2 started showing the decline in the modding mentality. Because now you need:
A good idea
The ability to code your good idea
The ability to make models for your good idea that don't clash/look horrible
So basically, you either need to be god (at which point, you realize you would rather make an indie game) or a dev team (at which point, you realize you would rather make an indie game).
Last edited by gundato; 30-11-2012 at 03:01 PM.
30-11-2012, 03:10 PM #30
The funny thing about coders is they're much more determined and/or insane that most people. You could just leave some completely rudimentary mod tools about and someone, somewhere will figure them out and use them.
And not as many of the Skyrim mods are just copy/paste jobs as you think. Most of the texture modders just took the basic design of something from another game as a blueprint and then they actually recreated the objects with their own custom-made textures.
It's much easier and often gives better results for a team to work with an already-made game engine than make one by themselves.
And the number of mods you see for a game is usually proportionate to how popular the game was. The Unreal games, Skryim and Half-Lifes were really, really popular. The Witcher and Dragon Age Origins were not as much. Games like Battlefield have a massive audience which would have probably led to some interesting ideas being kicked around by the code junkies in the crowd.
Last edited by Shooop; 30-11-2012 at 03:14 PM.Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
30-11-2012, 03:23 PM #31
And giving "rudimentary tools" is just begging for backlash. And it DOES increase costs, if only for testing/debugging and makings sure nothing proprietary is there.
As for "They didn't copy-paste, they remade it": I don't really care if they remade Relic's models themselves, I have no interest whatsoever in Space Marine brand Power Armor in Skyrim. It clashes horribly. ESPECIALLY when it is low-poly and intended to be seen zoomed out.
And you mention the unreal games: UT2k3/4 started to show the signs of "There really aren't many worthwhile mods" and it pretty much died with UT3.
Half-Life 2 is INSANELY popular. The number of completed (meaningful) mods can be counted on two hands and a penis.
And DA:O "wasn't popular"? Seriously...
And ideas are great. But you missed the whole part about "It takes a crapton of effort and skill to implement those ideas". I spent a lot of time with the mapper and modder crowd with the original (and best) UT. There were PLENTY of ideas. There were very few that actually came to fruition. And that was back when meshes and textures were simple enough that anyone who tried could make something nice.
30-11-2012, 03:48 PM #32
As popular as some other games, no. Of course it was popular enough to make a sequel of. But I didn't hear about it making as big of a splash as Skyrim. Bigger audience means a higher chance of people who like playing around with code playing it is what I'm getting at.
Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
30-11-2012, 04:06 PM #33
My UT2k4 folder was the first game folder that broke 10GB, and included maps, modes, total conversions and a ridiculous pile of very, very well-done models. A lot of them came from collaborations, not guys who only sleep one hour a week.
A lot of those teams do actually become devs, so I fail to see the problem.
30-11-2012, 04:32 PM #34
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30-11-2012, 06:14 PM #35
How much? When they already spend millions just to get a voice actor to read 10 seconds worth of dialogue into a microphone, is it really that much more? The DLC thing makes some sort of sense only because it's a professional job that (usually) has to meet the standards of the rest of the game. Why would it cost about as much just read over the code again?
That's just one out of how many other mods? And this isn't about personal taste.
Define for me "meaningful". If it's interesting enough to be entertaining for an hour or two I'd consider that meaningful because I may have not kept the base game on my HD for that hour or two more.
Aspopular as some other games, no. Of course it was popular enough to make a sequel of. But I didn't hear about it making as big of a splash as Skyrim. Bigger audience means a higher chance of people who like playing around with code playing it is what I'm getting at.
There's no reason anyone can't make something nice these days either though, especially considering there's free information about how to make textures all over the internet and free programs to make them. It's just a question of if anyone want to take the time to make them. And there will always be someone.
If someone has the ability to make beautiful models that fit the style of a game AND can code awesomely: They are awesome, probably want to make games "for real", and will go check out an indie solution.
If someone has assembled a team of awesomeness, they are probably going to want to do something more meaningful than Star Wars in UT3.
But yeah, the teams become devs. The thing is: These days, the barrier to making something "from scratch" is much less. With a free-ishly available engine, all you need are ideas and assets (and a coder or two :p)
But yeah, UT2k4 was probably the last great push of modding. But when you compare it to the original UT, it definitely showed the decay.
30-11-2012, 06:19 PM #36
30-11-2012, 06:45 PM #37
And UT2k4 and HL2? They each had a few big mods, but were MUCH less modded than UT and HL1. And were MUCH more popular.[/QUOTE]
Probably because they've been out longer and people understand them more. People are still making mods for them today simply because they can. Would you prefer they stop?
Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
30-11-2012, 06:51 PM #38
Without a team, you either need to be a super awesome bard (jack of all trades), which is not really practical for most people.
30-11-2012, 06:57 PM #39
30-11-2012, 07:00 PM #40