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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    If you're at the point where you can even make mod tools, then you're not really doing that much more strenuous are you? Coding isn't my thing, but I can't see how mod tools could actually break an entire game unless you coded something else very badly.
    At the very least: Odds are you didn't USE the "mod tools" internally. Because your employees won't bitch if building a map involves actually opening up a terminal and running a script. So you at least need to work on making it slightly more user-friendly. And that doesn't even consider that you probably partook of bad software engineering practices (that greatly sped up development time) and it is possible that your version of the UED actually has access to the key generator for multiplayer

    Usability for people who can go talk to the guys who made the tools and usability for people who are forced to rely on documentation are VERY different things.


    I have, and that's the same with anything. Like DLC - how much made by the professional studio by paid programers and staff is actually worth paying for? How much of it is crap that very few people would actually want? What's the difference other than who made it and if you have to pay for it?
    "Usually", DLC at least fits in with the style of the game and have a fair degree of polish to it. Not always, but the percentage is MUCH higher.



    And there you go again quoting things that never existed before. Are you going to make a habit of that? I'm not even going to bother a response for this because it's borderline lying.
    Uhm...
    Define for me "meaningful". If it's interesting enough to be entertaining for an hour or two I'd consider that meaningful because I may have not kept the base game on my HD for that hour or two more.p
    That is what I quoted dude. And if you are at the point where a mod is the only thing keeping a game on your HDD, you probably aren't huge on the game. And probably aren't likely to buy the sequels. Case in point: Most people who bought ArmA2 for DayZ probably aren't buying ArmA3. Because they are stupid poopy heads :p

    Probably because they've been out longer and people understand them more. People are still making mods for them today simply because they can. Would you prefer they stop?
    OH MAH GAWD!! WORDS IN MAH MOUTHZORZO!!! :p

    As I said, I was pretty active with a lot of the mappers and modders. I didn't make too many (successful :p) things myself, but I hung with a lot of the greats on IRC.
    At the launch of UT2k3 (so roughly 4 years of the original UT), there were LOTS of mods and mutators and what nots. Going on a browsing of Modsquad or even Fileplanet(I think that was one of the ones used, been almost a decade) was quite a good idea becuase you would find LOTS of nifty ideas and mods and mutators.
    At the launch of UT3 (2k7, so 3 years after UT2k4) it was worthwhile to check maybe the first few pages of Beyond Unreal's listings, but it was mostly pointless. We knew all the big mods (because of Make Something Unreal).

    But fine, let's pretend that it is all a matter of time and that in a decade we'll have millions of Crysis 1 mods. How is that at all beneficial to the publisher or developers?



    But sometimes they feel like testing the waters with their abilities and start small. Remember Dear Ester? Day Z? One was a college project and the other an experiment someone did in his free time. People don't charge for mods, they're doing it for free. They do it because they want to more than they want to get paid for them. Why take that option away from them especially since it's not denying them any other options?
    And there will always be people like that. But the push is definitely toward indie development of full games.

    In a perfect world with infinite resources, I would agree with you. Hell, I still DO agree with you. I want modding tools, if only for the potential. But there isn't much point. It is just a lot of costs that could be better spent on polish and DLCs.
    Because this isn't field of dreams. Just because you build it, doesn't mean they'll come. We have PLENTY of examples to show this isn't the case.



    You mean the same problem people have working with each other in any situation? OH NO!
    Already explained to Nally


    There isn't any universal engine that does everything everyone wants. I don't think you can totally recreate Nightmare House 2 or The Worry of Newport from those engines.
    Nightmare House 2 is an FPS mod. Unreal Engine 4.... Can't imagine what that engine is good with :p

    And you are right, there is no univeral engine (actually, one could argue that ALL engines are "universal", but that ignores performance issues). And I don't know what that has to do with mods.
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  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    So, humans, who are social animals, are at a disadvantage when they work alone.

    DO TELL
    Uhm. Okay?

    Nally, what the hell is your point? I am actually really confused at this point.
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  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Uhm. Okay?

    Nally, what the hell is your point? I am actually really confused at this point.
    That of all the problems to complain about when you're talking about the mod scene, having to deal with other people in order to tackle the complexity and scale of latter-day games is not a major obstacle, especially when it's clear a lot of outfits have been wildly successful at doing just that.

    In fact, I dare say that humans are singularly equipped for involved collaboration, having evolved for it for quite some time indeed!
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  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    That of all the problems to complain about when you're talking about the mod scene, having to deal with other people in order to tackle the complexity and scale of latter-day games is not a major obstacle, especially when it's clear a lot of outfits have been wildly successful at doing just that.

    In fact, I dare say that humans are singularly equipped for involved collaboration, having evolved for it for quite some time indeed!
    Yes, many have. And MANY more have failed horribly. Just look at the guy who was begging for help for his Star Wars in Freelancer mod.

    Yes, it is a problem that can be surpassed. The guys who make Unity have their asset store. Lots of websites have communities. But it still boils down to a big problem. And the more difficult it is to make assets that fit the theme of the game, the harder it is.


    If you are making a Mount&Blade mod, you can basically outsource help to anyone who can open Blender (I actually worked on a weapon for a Warhammer FB mod, but I forget if I ever submitted the mesh. For reference: I have the artistic skills of a lobotomized chipmunk).

    If you are making a UT3 or Skyrim mod, you need someone who understands more than just "I make the shape then I apply a basic texture".

    It is one of many reasons that mods as a whole have become less popular. And it showed up as early as UT2k4 and Half-Life 2. And time has only made it harder.

    As a result, the hobbyist is becoming less likely and we more have people who want to build up a portfolio or who are REALLY dedicated. We are rapidly approach/passing the point where the kid who works at the radio station in Montana made a really kickass mod in his spare time, and are more approaching "The guy who may or may not have a life made his magnum opus".

    Am I saying that modding doesn't work anymore? No. Look at DayZ. And that Battletech mod for Crysis either became MWO or is the inspiration for it last I heard. Just that the amount of effort that goes into making a mod and making an actual game with a tool like Unity or UE4 are comparable, but the latter lets the truly super-creative freaks of nature (oh how I worship thee...) really stretch their wings. And the potential for a few bucks helps too.
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  5. #45
    Lesser Hivemind Node SirDavies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It means revenue is increasing for sure. That's common sense. But where is that extra money going? If it's going into shareholder's or CEO's pockets then fair enough. But again, I'm not seeing evidence of that. It's equally likely that it's just going into the game development budget, to pay for the increased costs of development. Which doesn't seem greedy to me.

    By all means prove me wrong by showing EA's profits increasing year-on-year since horse armour was a thing...
    Oh yeah sure they are fucking struggling. I mean, if it wasn't for those 15 dollar CoD map-packs we probably wouldn't have a Blops 2. Oh, the terror! The DLC may be overpriced but I'd buy it anyway, you know, just to help out those little guys.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Yes, many have. And MANY more have failed horribly.
    Like most endeavors!

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Just look at the guy who was begging for help for his Star Wars in Freelancer mod.
    Sturgeon's Law prevails! The world is saved from a crappy Star Wars mod!

    Boo hoo, games are becoming more complex. How is this a problem? The old shit's still there. We also have new shit, and the new shit's pretty useful and robust if you want to invest the time to get to the heart of it. Where once we had simple tools, we now have more complex tools. It kinda sounds like progress is being made!
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirdavies View Post
    oh yeah sure they are fucking struggling. I mean, if it wasn't for those 15 dollar cod map-packs we probably wouldn't have a blops 2. Oh, the terror! The dlc may be overpriced but i'd buy it anyway, you know, just to help out those little guys.
    .......thq

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    I completely agree. DLC costs much less money to make, because all infrastructure and systems are already in place. It's only fair that it should cost less. Indie games already sell for much less.
    Do they? How come CoD has 100 people working on it full time for a year and costs $60, yet a game which 3 people worked on for 2 years costs $20? How is that fair? If 100 man-years is worth $60 then 6-man years for an indie game means it should cost $3.60.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Do they? How come CoD has 100 people working on it full time for a year and costs $60, yet a game which 3 people worked on for 2 years costs $20? How is that fair? If 100 man-years is worth $60 then 6-man years for an indie game means it should cost $3.60.
    Economies of scale kill small business, film at 11.
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  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Like most endeavors!



    Sturgeon's Law prevails! The world is saved from a crappy Star Wars mod!

    Boo hoo, games are becoming more complex. How is this a problem? The old shit's still there. We also have new shit, and the new shit's pretty useful and robust if you want to invest the time to get to the heart of it. Where once we had simple tools, we now have more complex tools. It kinda sounds like progress is being made!
    Oy...

    Yes, you are right. Progress is being made. THe problem for modders is: In the old days, it was very easy to emulate the art-style of a game. These days: Not so much.
    Hence why it is harder to form a good team, but said team is almost a necessity (one-man operations are much less likely)

    But GASP! There is a solution. Make your OWN art style so that you just need to stay consistent there. You can use all the cool toys but you don't need to worry about using the same filters Bethesda did. But as a mod, that would be stupid (or a TC). But as your own game...
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  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Oy...

    Yes, you are right. Progress is being made. THe problem for modders is: In the old days, it was very easy to emulate the art-style of a game. These days: Not so much.
    Hence why it is harder to form a good team, but said team is almost a necessity (one-man operations are much less likely)

    But GASP! There is a solution. Make your OWN art style so that you just need to stay consistent there. You can use all the cool toys but you don't need to worry about using the same filters Bethesda did. But as a mod, that would be stupid (or a TC). But as your own game...
    So you agree there's no problem, then! We don't have to use the post-production effects of the bleeding edge because keeping up with the Joneses isn't important and we're already bored with graphical fidelity trumping creativity anyway!
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  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    So you agree there's no problem, then! We don't have to use the post-production effects of the bleeding edge because keeping up with the Joneses isn't important and we're already bored with graphical fidelity trumping creativity anyway!
    Exactly. Which has been my point the entire time before you started rambling about something or another.

    But modding as anything other than a TC generally involves making sure your art style at least fits in with the art style of the host game. And if you are doing a TC, you might as well just make your own game these days.

    Hence: The progress of technology has, in some ways, made modding more difficult than "making an indie game".
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Exactly. Which has been my point the entire time before you started rambling about something or another.

    But modding as anything other than a TC generally involves making sure your art style at least fits in with the art style of the host game. And if you are doing a TC, you might as well just make your own game these days.

    Hence: The progress of technology has, in some ways, made modding more difficult than "making an indie game".
    But the creation of new art assets only applies to the minority of mods. Most are about the modification, addition or removal of gameplay systems, which has probably gotten easier due the use of simpler, more accessible scripting languages alongside actual dedicated modding tools, or otherwise make extensive use of the art the game already provides.

    Edit: I should add even then, the modding community hardly lacks the artistic talent to create new art assets for their mods in keeping with the games original aesthetic. 3D modelling and texturing is hardly some mystical art, out of the reach of mere modders.
    Last edited by byteCrunch; 01-12-2012 at 12:39 AM.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Hence: The progress of technology has, in some ways, made modding more difficult than "making an indie game".
    Except it hasn't, which, if you've been paying attention - and I admit it must be hard to get those gears turning when you're so sure that the point you've made wasn't heard the first five times you stated it - is kinda the fucking point of my ever-increasingly over-the-top larks!

    The age of Renaissance men is over, long live the age of Renaissance men!
    Last edited by Nalano; 01-12-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    But the creation of new art assets only applies to the minority of mods. Most are about the modification, addition or removal of gameplay systems, which has probably gotten easier due the use of simpler, more accessible scripting languages alongside actual dedicated modding tools, or otherwise make extensive use of the art the game already provides.

    Edit: I should add even then, the modding community hardly lacks the artistic talent to create new art assets for their mods in keeping with the games original aesthetic. 3D modelling and texturing is hardly some mystical art, out of the reach of mere modders.
    That is partially true. That is why we still have stuff like the unofficial patches and the rebalancing mods. But I know that when I think of the "mods of yesteryear", I am thinking of new resources and the like. A rebalancing only goes so far if it is still the same content, whereas new stuff is always more stuff.

    And some modding communities do have that capability, but said people are few and far between (seriously, go look at the Steam Workshop for Skyrim :p). But as we push for shinier and shinier crap, those people capable AND interested in making the models grow fewer and fewer.

    In practice, it is still largely the same. Learn the tool, make awesome stuff. And the tools have gotten to the point where it is VERY easy to make said awesome stuff. But the learning curves on said tools have increased accordingly, making an even larger barrier to entry. One reason NWN1 had so many awesome adventures was that the toolset was actually REALLY easy to use. I recall people having mini-aneurysms when they saw the NWN2 and DA:O toolsets.
    The old UED (1.0 and 2.0 era) was actually REALLY easy to use since it was all BSP. If you could understand addition and subtraction, it was easy as hell. Then the UED3 (so UE2) started emphasizing static meshes and the like which meant even more tools were needed. Haven't checked the UED for the UE3 or UE4 yet, but I imagine it also ramped up in complexity.

    And the people who have the willpower and drive to learn those tools tend to actually be driven toward creating something. Something awesome and the like. That is why UT2k3/4 started to show a great shift from "I made a mutator that adds this gun" to "I made a TC that adds 10 new guns and 5 new vehicles and involves stealing clone foetuses!". Speaking of, I loved that mod :p

    Which is another reason why I love the current push toward asset stores and the like. Unity is AWESOME because you don't have to go out of your way to find a good artist if you are just a coder. Or a good coder if you are just an artist. It lets people make their masterpieces without needing to become a bard or form a party at the local inn. And that also kills off the old big advantage of modding: Pre-made assets that shipped with the game.

    Is there still room for mods? Of course. But as I have been saying repeatedly: It isn't necessarily a smart move for MOST developers/publishers. You have to spend resources on developing user-friendly-ish tools, you need to debug and verify (and probably patch) those tools. And you have absolutely no guarantee that you'll get anything of worth in return. For whatever reason, if modders don't flock to your game, you wasted your time. And probably got some "bad" PR in that people are going to accuse you of just making a tech demo for an engine (Crysis, UT3, HL2 to an extent).

    Which gets me back to the point I made before Nally got bored or whatever: The reason most devs/publishers don't bother with mod support is threefold:
    1. It costs money and time
    2. There is no guarantee modders will actually care
    3. The REALLY awesome people probably aren't making CS anymore. They are making the indie games we have been buying in bundles non-stop for the past few years :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Except it hasn't, which, if you've been paying attention - and I admit it must be hard to get those gears turning when you're so sure that the point you've made wasn't heard the first five times you stated it - is kinda the fucking point of my ever-increasingly over-the-top larks!

    The age of Renaissance men is over, long live the age of Renaissance men!
    Nally, I must not have understood your nonsensical rambling and the like.

    But fine, let's pretend your current argument* is true (it actually is in many ways) with respect to "renaissance men". The jack of all trades as it were.

    THAT is the key to a mod. That is why there are so few "mod teams" these days (and always were, in a lot of ways). Coordinating a bunch of people to work on something in their spare time for no reward (barely even recognition) is hard unless you back it with an actual community (which is why 7Bullets and the like worked so well, since that had a lot to do with the UnrealSP.org and associated IRC communities). So the "lone wolf" team is a good approach, if you have the ability.

    But that gets us back into the "Driven people are driven to do stuff" issue I mentioned above. If you are that awesome, you probably want to make some stuff/have creative control and the like. So we are back to "Forming a team of random strangers on the internet" or "Be god"

    *: I am hesitant to call it a "point" since I am starting to suspect you will just decide to say "You are stupid, I was saying this" every time we come to an agreement, but these discussiosn are fun, so whatever :p
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  16. #56
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    Am I the only person who has no interest in DLC, and therefore doesn't worry about it or buy it or complain about it. Most of it seems pretty optional, and if people don't think it's worth the money then don't buy it.

    I understand the completionist/pack-rat mentality that is very very common among gamers, as i sometimes succumb myself... but really, the base game can probably be enjoyed perfectly well without the DLC. So forget about it and enjoy it.

    I did buy a few expansion packs back in the day, but that was more like buying a sequel.

    Actually, I think that the idea of splitting more content off into DLC isn't, at it's core, a bad one. It means that gamers with less time can enjoy a more short and focused game, but those with more free time can (if they pay more) enjoy a longer game. Personally, these days, I find most games too long and padded out, and I often don't finish them (and have a big pile of unplayed games). so DLC doesn't really appeal. But if I was still a single student with huge amounts of free time and disposable income then I could pick up the collector's editions or pre-orders (if i was also an idiot) and spend 80 hours on each game.

  17. #57
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    So your entire point comes down to, "Because it's hard no one should be allowed to do it"? Is that it?
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  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Do they? How come CoD has 100 people working on it full time for a year and costs $60, yet a game which 3 people worked on for 2 years costs $20? How is that fair? If 100 man-years is worth $60 then 6-man years for an indie game means it should cost $3.60.

    Indie games often do cost that much- Humble Indie Bundle.

    Are you suggesting that a game is better because it costs $60 ? The indie devs are fully entitled to charge such a big fraction if their game plays better than CoD. And that's a pretty low bar to hit. I'm talking about playing the game, not watching a movie.

    I'd much rather play Teleglitch, made by 3 people from Estonia, than another rollercoaster CoD, with bullshit voiceovers telling me shooting in a game is affected by air humidity, wind, and coriolis force.
    pass

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    That is partially true. That is why we still have stuff like the unofficial patches and the rebalancing mods. But I know that when I think of the "mods of yesteryear", I am thinking of new resources and the like. A rebalancing only goes so far if it is still the same content, whereas new stuff is always more stuff.
    Exactly. Total conversions of the Doom/Duke3D days, or even extensive SP mapping projects, have somewhat died out lately. A lot of modding teams focus on MP play (due to the more limited art asset requirements I guess?) or stick to the smaller mods. It's a trend that's been going on for a while. Take a look at the modding scene for Half Life and then Half Life 2 (collectively since it was released). HL was thriving. Source modding never quite managed the same volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    One reason NWN1 had so many awesome adventures was that the toolset was actually REALLY easy to use. I recall people having mini-aneurysms when they saw the NWN2 and DA:O toolsets.
    Oh yeah, I totally agree. NWN2's toolset was a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    The old UED (1.0 and 2.0 era) was actually REALLY easy to use since it was all BSP. If you could understand addition and subtraction, it was easy as hell. Then the UED3 (so UE2) started emphasizing static meshes and the like which meant even more tools were needed. Haven't checked the UED for the UE3 or UE4 yet, but I imagine it also ramped up in complexity.
    Again, I totally agree :P but I guess part of that has to do with introducing new rendering methods that rely on more complex geometry being quicker to render as a static mesh than being made out of blocks. One thing that annoys me about Unity for example is that it pretty much demands that you make your level mesh in a 3D modelling app and import it. 3D modelling apps are atrocious at level designs, which seems ridiculous because fundamentally there's no big difference in terms of actually laying the basics out. Except that there's a ridiculous amount of effort that goes into making that mesh efficient, particularly if you use a texture atlas to reduce draw calls. It's a nightmare.

    I suppose the other argument though is Hammer. I look at Hammer and I see WorldCraft from the 90s. It's more or less the same, and it's fucking horrible. That's an example where the tools definitely did not get better with newer tech :P

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    3. The REALLY awesome people probably aren't making CS anymore. They are making the indie games we have been buying in bundles non-stop for the past few years :p
    And I think that's probably the more important point, even though when I suggest it I get shouted down. Why would people make mods these days? It's not a significant leap to work with a tool like Unity, especially when Unity is free up to a particular point. That way your audience is not limited to people who own the game, and you're not limited to the constraints of that game (or what the devs are willing to let you mod). Although there's less to start with, as you point out there's a lot of help around for it too. There's even a complete visual scripting solution (quite a few actually) so that you don't even have to learn to code so long as you can understand flowcharts. If you're going to go through the effort of making all those assets and significantly modifying a game, you might as well just work on your own game.

  20. #60
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    Gundato laying down the law telling us the mods from the past 5-6 years suck and that it's a waste of time and the community is too stupid.

    Move aside people, the maestro is telling everyone how it is from his staring at shadows on the wall perspective.

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