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  1. #81
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    Hating on modern games in general is one of those things that really vexes me. "Things were better in the old days" is a common enough mindset, until you actually sit down and remember how bad things were.

  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandelay View Post
    As is usually the case, people are mistaking a mechanic used badly for a bad mechanic.
    Fair enough, just seems that there's a weird backlash against cover as if nobody has ever taken cover in a firefight. I remember when FPS games were moving away from Quake-style 100km/hr deathmatching and into tactical gameplay, people were going "Oh and you need to take cover to avoid getting hit!" like it was a big new feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Not every, but most. The thing is, there are so many games these days you could still fill a great year of gaming solely playing the exceptions to those rules.
    Excellent point. Gaming has grown an awful lot, we've got a large number of developers across many genres. Go back to the Golden Age of the 90s and we had far fewer developers and games to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    Are you suggesting they aren't?
    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    ...I'm attracted to obscure games and interesting mechanics.
    Translation: I'm just on a whole other level from you commoners, you just wouldn't understand.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheXand View Post
    Hating on modern games in general is one of those things that really vexes me. "Things were better in the old days" is a common enough mindset, until you actually sit down and remember how bad things were.
    I don't know about that; I have a nice pile of games from 10-20 years ago that are still really good. A lot of the problems with classic games is that they were made with significant technical limitations and inexperience that just wouldn't be present in a modern title. I'm reasonably comfortable with the current state of gaming but it is a little bit distressing that I can find the old stuff standing up so well to modern games given all the clear inadequacies of old games.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I don't know about that; I have a nice pile of games from 10-20 years ago that are still really good. A lot of the problems with classic games is that they were made with significant technical limitations and inexperience that just wouldn't be present in a modern title. I'm reasonably comfortable with the current state of gaming but it is a little bit distressing that I can find the old stuff standing up so well to modern games given all the clear inadequacies of old games.
    It would be nice if more developers tried to integrate the depth of older classics and the accessibility of modern games. Dragon Age 1 was a brilliant retromodern throwback, as are Dungeons of Dredmor and Legend of Grimrock and FTL. Dwarf Fortress was always far too ugly and unintuitive for me to ever get involved with, the interface and ASCII graphics were an almighty turnoff.

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheXand View Post
    It would be nice if more developers tried to integrate the depth of older classics and the accessibility of modern games.
    One thing that frustrates me about the "older games were more complex!" argument is that for the most part it relies on cryptic interfaces or using the entire keyboard because low-resolution interfaces could only fit so much onto the screen at once. Complex interfaces or needlessly complex mechanics are not deep. As an example X3 isn't really all that complex mechanically, it only appears that way because the interface is atrocious and the game materials do an absolutely terrible job of explaining the game.

    IMO if you rely on a community to write a proper manual or guide, you've screwed up somewhere.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    One thing that frustrates me about the "older games were more complex!" argument is that for the most part it relies on cryptic interfaces or using the entire keyboard because low-resolution interfaces could only fit so much onto the screen at once. Complex interfaces or needlessly complex mechanics are not deep. As an example X3 isn't really all that complex mechanically, it only appears that way because the interface is atrocious and the game materials do an absolutely terrible job of explaining the game.

    IMO if you rely on a community to write a proper manual or guide, you've screwed up somewhere.
    I particularly hated that game series precisely for the controls. If they'd only adopted a control scheme akin to Freelancer's it would have been so much more accessible without having to sacrifice any perceived depth. As it stands Freelancer is the finest open world space sim I've played. Worth noting I'm not old enough to remember Elite so it's just an ugly has-been to my eyes.

  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheXand View Post
    I particularly hated that game series precisely for the controls. If they'd only adopted a control scheme akin to Freelancer's it would have been so much more accessible without having to sacrifice any perceived depth. As it stands Freelancer is the finest open world space sim I've played. Worth noting I'm not old enough to remember Elite so it's just an ugly has-been to my eyes.
    Freelancer, a space... sim?
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    One thing that frustrates me about the "older games were more complex!" argument is that for the most part it relies on cryptic interfaces or using the entire keyboard because low-resolution interfaces could only fit so much onto the screen at once.
    No, it's because modern games treat the player like a retard which creates an illusion of simplicity.

    For example compare SS2 to Bioshock, which, while mechanically similar, has:
    - current goal appearing on top of the screen complete with flashing lights
    - quest compass complete with door-to-door navigation
    - contextual messages for everything
    - item shimmer
    - PROTIP messages(such as Search CONTAINERS for LOOT)

  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    No, it's because modern games treat the player like a retard which creates an illusion of simplicity.

    For example compare SS2 to Bioshock, which, while mechanically similar, has:
    - current goal appearing on top of the screen complete with flashing lights
    - quest compass complete with door-to-door navigation
    - contextual messages for everything
    - item shimmer
    - PROTIP messages(such as Search CONTAINERS for LOOT)
    Is that any worse than the era where you could never be able to tell whether a door was a door because it was identical with door-shaped walldressing?

    Or when you knew that this item was useful because it floated above the ground as a brightly lit sprite?
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  10. #90
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    No, it's because modern games treat the player like a retard which creates an illusion of simplicity.
    Except that's just the other extreme of what I was talking about and effectively a strawman argument. The fact that they are now putting too many hints into games is entirely different from people lamenting the depreciation of requiring the entire keyboard to do simple tasks, or the removal of pointless gameplay mechanics which were needlessly complex, or the lack of a requirement to read a 100 page manual to accomplish what should be a simple task.

    And again I point to X3, because it has an absolutely terrible interface and the developers insisted on using their own terms for simple concepts like units of time and failing to implement a proper mouse-driven interface. All of X3's complexity comes from its abysmal interface. A lot of Dwarf Fortress' complexity comes from its interface and lack of easy access to information.

    Again, if you have to rely on a community to effectively write a manual that isn't useless for people to be able to play the game, then you're doing something wrong with your UI or mechanics. Opaque mechanics are not necessarily complex. Take XCOM for example (either the new one or the original) - fairly simple mechanics but with significant depth. Had a decent-ish UI for the time period but doesn't require a lot of effort to learn. Pointlessly complex mechanics are nothing to praise, particularly if the complexity comes from a crappy UI. That has nothing to do with item shimmer or "Hint: Shoot enemies to win the level."

    Also as Nalano said we've always had these little hints. You complain about item shimmer but floating powerups and other tricks to draw your attention to pickups have been around for ages.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Freelancer, a space... sim?
    Aye. Just because it didn't have shit controls and a crap interface doesn't mean it wasn't a sim.

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    A sufficient number of TV watchers are dumb. Watching TV is a passive non-activity and you can't question anything or bring up more information on the subject.

    A book is like a loaded gun in the house next door. Who knows who might be the target of a well-read man ?
    pass

  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    A sufficient number of TV watchers are dumb. Watching TV is a passive non-activity and you can't question anything or bring up more information on the subject.

    A book is like a loaded gun in the house next door. Who knows who might be the target of a well-read man ?
    Now you're taking the piss. At least I hope you are. If you're not, I've lost faith in RPS.

  14. #94
    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Now you're taking the piss. At least I hope you are. If you're not, I've lost faith in RPS.
    Of course (s)he's taking a piss!

    Books are bad because they contradict each other. And they describe people that have never actually lived. They are often sad and make people displeased.

    See? He's describing pretty much every medium there ever was and says that books are bad because they don't differ. Books don't contradict each other any more than other media, to my knowledge. Other than newspapers (and possibly not even that), I can't think of a single medium that has the vast quantities of descriptions of people that actually have lived. And I'm not even going to comment on that last sentence (besides this statement proclaiming that I won't).

    Don't leave us soldant!

  15. #95
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    The book part of my recent posts are actually quotes from Fahrenheit 451. Kadayi was so annoying I couldn't resist. But I do think that TV breeds dumb people. There are some good shows on TV in the same way there is Anime that doesn't suck and isn't very formulaic, and in the same way that a broken clock shows correct hour twice a day. TV doesn't encourage to think, you can watch it without doing it. It runs parallel to your line of thought. In contrast, books are powered by your brain and you can't just sit your way through one. Additionally, there are no "book channels". Each time you finish a book you have to decide what to read next.

    While there are interesting movies, movies (especially at cinema) and computer games are the honeypot for greedy people and cheap entertainers. It's not that books can't be crap - it's just that people who care about profit and mass audience first and foremost tend to prefer shinier, visual media. I still like to play games, but I have to spend a lot of time to filter crap.
    pass

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Is that any worse than the era where you could never be able to tell whether a door was a door because it was identical with door-shaped walldressing?
    This happens even today when doors are bump-mapped greatly detailed elements of levels and has everything to do with developers' ineptitude, not simplicity or complexity.

    Or when you knew that this item was useful because it floated above the ground as a brightly lit sprite?
    Never happened in System Shock 2. Or in the first System Shock. Or in just about any game that was more complicated/serious than Doom(which actually didn't have many of those either).

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    I've had loads of fun playing games this year and there's been loads of titles I haven't even gotten a chance to play yet like Dishonored, FTL, X-com, Hotline Miami, The Walking Dead and Spec Ops.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    TV doesn't encourage to think, you can watch it without doing it.
    I can't really think of a rebuke to this, maybe I've been watching too much TV, or maybe it's because it's just so wildly inaccurate.

  19. #99
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Not sure if this has been said but I think, in my own experience, that the context of my age has such a profound affect on my time playing games that I would never really talk about progress one way or another. I have no doubt in my mind that the amount of time I had as a youngster offset against the lack of money meant that I would play anything for hours and probably enjoy I, pull something of value out of it and so on, because I could/had to. To me, irrespective of how good they are in absolute terms (if one can measure such a thing) they were good, they were enjoyable, end of.

    I go back and try some of these games now-Age of Empires, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Thief games, I lost hundreds of hours to each-and they seem clunky and frustrating. If I were poor, and had no other games and lack of time competing with their affections, Iíd probably learn to love them again, I would invest in them out of necessity. But I donít have the inclination to pull things out of games by investing in them for hours anymore. Even games I played comparatively recently to them, like the Witcher in 2007, I wouldnít commit to without having a big window, because what it asks is patience and dedication and I donít have the time to give that to games very often.

    By the same token games which I used to think of as cheap compared to the magnum oppuses (opi?) I used to actively seek out for their depth, I now find can be great. I spent the weekend before Halloween playing Costume Quest, completed it in seven hours with all the achievements, and it was just brilliant. Whereas as a kid I would have felt ripped off that I had completely opened out this game in the space of two playing sessions. The brevity enhanced the experience here, because it was what my life required. Iíve matured, and so have my hopes as to what a gaming experience will entail/mean.

    Ultimately what matters is whether you enjoy a game or not. If you do, thatís all that matters. Everyone in the world might think youíre wrong, but relative to your experience, youíre in the right. Just as with any other media.

    You can spot trends, say things are becoming dumbed down or shooting orientated etc, but the fact remains that PC gaming is one of the most creative experiences you can enjoy, there will *always* be games you havenít played which do or try something new. If not new in an advent garde , industry sense, new to where youíre at in your life nonetheless.

    I spent a lot of hours playing video games when I was young, from the age of about 11-17, probably easily five hours a day on average, and I probably played no more than ten or eleven in that space. I didnít need to. I was having the best time in the original TW games, in Age of Empires skirmishes, in Dungeon Keeper and so on, at no point was I thinking ďneed to play something else nowĒ.

    I have no doubt that if it somehow became a reality that no one could ever play any more games than what they currently own the majority of us would not even play them all before we died, and would probably know a richer experience form each of the games as well. Weíd find a tens of games which cater for mature experiences, tens which cater for silly fun nonsense, tens which cater for mechanical gratification and so on.
    Nobody needs anything as approaching as many games as are released or available to enjoy playing videogames, just as nobody needs a new pair of shoes every other month or so or whatever to add anything to their life, itís just consumerism fulfilling its own prophecy. That is the foremost factor in most of our lives I think, and games are no exception. The focus is whatís to come, whatís to improve, whatís next. The point isnít that things are getting better/worse, the point is that few people stop to even consider the evidence in the first place. Our brains have been programmed to expect and rove consistently, the ability to savour and contemplate has been massively devalued.

    Fuck, dunno how I got onto that. Ah well.

    GAMES.

  20. #100
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    The book part of my recent posts are actually quotes from Fahrenheit 451. Kadayi was so annoying I couldn't resist. But I do think that TV breeds dumb people. There are some good shows on TV in the same way there is Anime that doesn't suck and isn't very formulaic, and in the same way that a broken clock shows correct hour twice a day. TV doesn't encourage to think, you can watch it without doing it. It runs parallel to your line of thought. In contrast, books are powered by your brain and you can't just sit your way through one. Additionally, there are no "book channels". Each time you finish a book you have to decide what to read next.
    If by annoying you mean showing you up for the imbecilic hipster you apparently are then colour me bad I guess. Also I'm not sure how procreation and education works in your end of the world (Poland I'm guessing) but here in the UK we breed the traditional way and education occurs in the home & the school, not solely via the TV screen.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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