Dungeon Keeper clone - War for the Overworld (Kickstarter)

[b0rsuk]

This game that just launched their kickstarter is basically a clone of Dungeon Keeper. Clone is the right word to use, as they're even imitating the visual style and models.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...the-overworld/

They have a better pitch video than Maia, their page describes more about the game, and the video is more dramatic. But somehow the project doesn't excite me - probably looks too derivative, like Dungeon Keeper with less charm. They have very ambitious goals, but I doubt they are capable enough to achieve them.

They're asking for £150,000, which is cheeky because Maia had great trouble assembling 2/3 of that, and Sui Generis barely got as much. On the other hand, they got £21,855 in their first day, which is much better than Maia's first days.

The game will work on Windows, Mac, and Linux. The engine is Unity4. But I won't be backing this project.

[Jesus_Phish]

This does look like a clone. Everything about it makes it look like a reskin of DK2, from the treasure rooms, the heros, the ability of slapping imps around and the guy doing the voice over.

There's not an original idea in the head of this team from what I've seen. It reminds me of when you go on holiday and you end up in a tacky rip off version of Disney Land called "Magical Kingdoms" or something with their mascot "Marky the Mouse".

[Noirdeathe]

I don't know, this project looks amazing. Dungeon Keeper was a massive part of my childhood and this just looks like more of the awesomeness that is Dungeon Keeper. I think the excellent pitch video helps a craptonne also.

Also; more Dungeon Keeper is always good.

[Tei]

I remember DK has a "humour game" more than a RTS game. It was in the open games where the game was mostly... broken?. Reviving it is ok, but if is done with humour. IMHO.

[Patrick Swayze]

Waiting for the demo to download, very slowly for some reason, but it could be actually awesome.

[cowthief skank]

Everything about this should have made me want to back it, without question. The huge smile it gave when I heard the guy's voice. Yet it left me kind of cold, somehow. Perhaps future videos can change that... Because they are presumably not making a simple clone, otherwise why have they mentioned Majesty and Overlord as influences...

[Malawi Frontier Guard]

All the talk about traps worries me. Traps were a real clusterfuck in Evil Genius.

[b0rsuk]

I've received a message from the lead designer. To summarize, he's saying they're making a DK sequel in all but name. They've talked to EA to get the rights, but received a simple "No." This makes things a little difficult, for example they can't openly refer to DK in their updates, they'll be talking about old vs new. For the same reason, no iconic characters like Horned Reaper, Mistress or Bile Demon will return. They'll have to make their own.

Updates about the new design are planned, they want to spread them over the course of the campaign.

I'd say their intention is genuine. But will they be able to deliver a game no worse than Dungeon Keeper ? You be the judge. It's your money.

[cowthief skank]

I'd say their intention is genuine. But will they be able to deliver a game no worse than Dungeon Keeper ?

They sounded very much into it in the video, so I am interested to see where they take it. It's a big shame there'll be no Bile Demon though.

[Simburgur]

Hey folks, I'm the aforementioned designer. What b0rsuk says is accurate, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about us or the game here.

Waiting for the demo to download, very slowly for some reason, but it could be actually awesome.

We just uploaded our video to youtube, that may work better for you.

[cowthief skank]

Hey folks, I'm the aforementioned designer. What b0rsuk says is accurate, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about us or the game here.

It always makes a big difference when a developer shows their face, I think. Don't have any questions for now, but having read a little more, in particular today's update on Kickstarter, and seeing you making an effort with the community, this is a good sign...

[b0rsuk]

I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about us or the game here.

That's nice.

1. How are you going to fix multiplayer, and will it mean that some sacrifices have to be made to single player game ? Or a separate ruleset ? Multiplayer in DK technically worked, but mainly as a way to silence players with ideas such as "I wonder what it would be like to play one keeper against another keeper ?". The game was too heavily defense-oriented for it to work:
- defender gets traps
- defender can drop creatures anywhere on his turf pretty much instantly, especially compared to Call to Arms
- defender has imps take his fallen creatures to Lair and let them rest. Attacking creatures are taken to prison or torture chamber instead. Attacker has much more to lose.
- few incentives to leave the dungeon or expand. You can mine the gold you need outside and you no longer need to remain there.
- fortified walls were almost unbreakable
- rooms were never damaged in fights, only if attacking creatures were left alone undisturbed.
- and more...

One solution is to have game modes specifically designed to combat turtling....
1. Good vs Evil - one player plays as a keeper, second player invades with forces of light
2. Whoever controlls the middle for 5 minutes, wins.
3. Last Man Standing - all players are attacked by progressively stronger hero teams until they eventually succumb. The last keeper to be alive wins.

2. Are you going to do anything about the ability to pick up monsters and drop them anywhere ? It made positioning and formations even less important they are in Starcraft. This made Outposts obsolete except for attracting orcs.

3. There were only soft collisions, and this inevitably ended with big battles being extremely chaotic. The only way to manage them was to look at icons with HP bars and heal/pick up. This isn't trivial to solve because fights are likely to happen in corridors 1 space wide. Do you have any ideas for improvement ?

Considering the absence of the iconic monsters, I think it would be best if you made a big number of concept sketches and asked the community which they like the most. Sort of like Double Fine did. Ideally on some website that doesn't require paying or registration, so you avoid asking just the people who are already convinced.

During World War II the English sent daily bombing raids into Germany. Many planes never returned; those that did were often riddled with bullet holes from anti-air machine guns and German fighters.Wanting to improve the odds of getting a crew home alive, English engineers studied the locations of the bullet holes. Where the planes were hit most, they reasoned, is where they should attach heavy armor plating. Sure enough, a pattern emerged: Bullets clustered on the wings, tail, and rear gunner’s station. Few bullets were found in the main cockpit or fuel tanks.
The logical conclusion is that they should add armor plating to the spots that get hit most often by bullets.

[Simburgur]

(Not quoting due to length)

@b0rsuk: Your first two points are ones that I - and the folks who worked on DK2 that I have spoken to - agree with...

1. To me personally, MP - or more specifically, the sandbox-like gameplay - is most important. Every other mode is based around this sandbox, so we need to get it right before even moving on to doing a campaign, etc. The problem you are describing is what we call 'Defender Advantage' and you are right in saying that it broke MP in DK2. Some (but by no means all) of the things we are doing to fix this:
- Blood (an energy-like resource) has replaced Mana is designed around limiting how much you can influence the physical world in a short space of time, meaning that your ability to abuse the defender advantage is severely diminished
- Later on in the game, there are going to be multiple ways of getting through fortified walls
- There are many, many more incentives to actually go out and explore and control parts of the map, making not-turtling a viable option

2. Yes, this was broken as hell but still very fun. We found a happy medium, this will be detailed in a spells-focused update.

3. This is kind of an artificial problem created by the 'drop all your units, only one way to move units' problems. We've solved both of those, so unit bunching isn't going to be an issue. We can't have hard collision on units simply because we want to have a nice variety in size and shapes, and in order for that to actually work with collision we would need to make each individual tile huge. In DK2 for example, there was an elaborate combat system where units arranged themselves to fight properly, but nobody ever saw it in action due to the ways combat started - the problem lies in the initiation of combat rather than the lack of collision itself.

We are definitely going to be revealing units as we go, and ensuring our units are unique and interesting in every department is something I personally am striving for.

[b0rsuk]

I'm not so sure about destroying fortified walls. One one hand, they took forever to breach. On the other, once destroyed the square was open forever. So maybe if you add ways to breach walls more reliably, you should also add ways to replace them. Only make sure that it takes much longer and/or is more expensive to rebuild than to destroy. It makes sense that building is harder than destruction. I think there were bigger issues than walls, and I liked them strong.

Another way to tackle the issue of impregnable fortresses could be borrowed from Majesty 1. In Majesty, when your city grows it also spawns sewer entrances, and various monsters enter through these. In the middle of your city ! In terms of DK, it could mean that every now and then you uncover a new entrance or magical portal. Not only heroes, but also minions of other keepers could enter through them. They'd be impossible to seal, the best you could do would be to surround them with traps.
This shouldn't be something a map maker places, but rather they should spawn automatically, a function of your dungeon area.

[Ultramegazord]

Loved the demo, DK is probably my favorite game ever and playing that 1st person mode took me back, the mood is perfect and I really hope you keep developing that mood to make the game immersive, that was one of my favorite aspects of DK, all the little objects everywhere, the torchs and skeletons on the walls, the monster beds, the wood chicken houses, the book shelves, all the machinery and steam on the workshop and so on, it was full of details and I loved that.

Gameplay wise, yes, it wasn't really a balanced game but it was fun, hope you can make a great multiplayer mode but what I really want is the sandbox mode and have fun with my own dungeon.

Backed by the way!

[karry]

But will they be able to deliver a game no worse than Dungeon Keeper ?

It's not like its a hard thing to do, Dungeon Keeper was a pretty broken game. Base building was ultimately pointless as it didnt affect anything important, combat control was a total joke, resourse play - nonexistant, traps barely scratched anything other than dwarf miners, and the campaign was pretty much crap, fighting with million and one other keepers who use exact same units.
Most of all, you didnt actually DO anything actually EVIL, more like you acted pretty much in self-defense, thus undermining the entire premise(and promise) of the game.

[wahwah]

Dungeon Keeper was one of my first PC games, and the one I feel most nostalgic about. It was just a ton of fun, even if partly broken as karry said.
So this has me really excited, I hope they reach their goal as I can only pledge through paypal once they're funded.

[b0rsuk]

One thing that disturbs me is that no creature they revealed looks like a caricature. The game looks too serious.

[Moot Point]

This game is can be greenlight voted on steam as well. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...65&searchtext=

[gundato]

What is up with all the KSes remaking DUngeon Keeper?