My name is Jason. You may know me as Tigershark. I have a full time job that consumes a lot of my time in order to support my wife and my new born baby. I leave home at 7am and come home around 7.30pm. I also travel quite a bit for my job which takes me away from home in regular stints of between 3-5 days. In the little spare time I have I am also trying to get my own iOS development studio up and running whilst trying to juggle work commitments and spend what precious time I have left with my family.
Why is this of any interest to you? Well....it is perhaps of no interest at all. However, the more astute of you will have drawn a link between the fact that despite the limited time I have in just getting ahead in life, I, like all of the other hosts who make Sundays and Tuesdays happen, still find the time in each or our respective busy lives to run Arma sessions for people (ie. You) so they can enjoy a game that we also love to play. If this wasn't time consuming enough, many of the hosts also find additional time to write missions (for the sessions you enjoy) and in my own situation, find time to think about workshops, potential training and set up workshops for interested people to enjoy.
Perhaps this is not immediately obvious to many of you but this takes up quite a lot of time. Yet it is something we feel appropriately passionate about that we continue to do it and very much want to succeed and prosper. Building, nurturing and growing a community seems like an easy thing until you try it yourself.
If you are still reading (and I hope you are) contrast this commitment with your own contributions to our community. Other than turning up to play (in an organised session that is moderated for the enjoyment of all) and whining in this thread....what have you contributed to either Folk or ARPS Arma community?
Please....take a moment and consider how de-motivating a lot of the crap in this thread must be for the people who, you know.....actually do shit to make your Sunday's and Tuesday's enjoyable. You may claim, "Look...anyone can do what you do!" And you are right. The point is....they don't...do they? Do you step up? If you don't step up and are happy to simply turn up and play, do think that gives you some kind of right to complain about all the things that are not to your liking despite the fact you have contributed zero?
So please…let's all keep some perspective in this thread. There may be some things in here we are not happy with, and like in life, some compromises were made and tough decisions were taken, but these are decisions that were taken by the hosts (not lightly I might add) for the good of the community and yes, somewhat selfishly, for the good of the hosts so that we might be able to use some of our time for the other important things in life like….work, study and……family.
Last edited by Bodge; 07-12-2012 at 01:03 PM.
Reason: On request of author
I agree the frustration is there, it requires quite a bit of free time but for the most part it is done out of the enjoyment of the game. The people who turn up and play are just as important as those who organise things and their opinions matter too.
Criticism of decisions is valid, it helps lead to change for the better if such things are discussed.
When there's change, there's always bitching and whining because that's what makes us human. We usually don't like change, hence the mass hysteria. I think both sides just need to calm down and get on with their lives as usual.
@Tigershark: I don't think anyone ever disregarded yours or anyone else's time and efforts. I am very grateful for it and I can appreciate how hard it must be while working/having a family etc.
However, this is not a contest of who gives more, is it? If for example I put my whole paycheck for the running of the server, would I have more of a say than now? I don't think so. If I quit my job and take up all the responsibilities of hosting etc, would I have the right to take it to the direction I want? Again, I don't think so. Hosting and organizing is important, but so is the player base, right? And 'contribution'? Is this a pension fund? This is something we're supposed to do to have fun, it's not a company... One thing I dislike about groups like ShackTac is their stupid corporate/marketing vocabulary and mentality. It's a f**|*|*|*ing group to play games, no more no less. (Anyway this has nothing to do with this discussion)
Also, describing some legitimate concerns as 'complaining' or as 'bitching and whining' like Draakon, does not give any credibility to your argumentation. I would say it does just the opposite. I cannot speak for the rest, but as far as I am concerned it was an opportunity to air some thoughts and not complain. As I said, I don't have time or the inclination do take part in the running of this group, so I was not complaining or criticizing. I just thought it would be a good opportunity to discuss some things. For sure, some replies might have been a bit aggressive or overboard, but I do think they underline some legitimate concerns...
I guess having a more relaxed Thursday is a starting point and, as someone else rightly pointed out, with the current numbers it might be difficult to organize a more relaxed day. We' ll see how it goes.
And for the record, this is not a personal attack on you and I don't really care about socialist jokes, brands or mergers. We play together anyway for some time now, I enjoyed it a lot and personally I would not want that to change.
I think you are right about things being a bit overboard, the thread would benefit from trying to focus on what people would like to change/keep the same/do. Measured responses are helpful, though Tiger has a valid point with regards to how de-motivating it can be.
1) Points taken. Though the feeling that folk is absorbing arps I think is something that will linger (at least for me) regardless of what reasons or logic are thrown at it just because of the overall perception of it all.
Originally Posted by Bodge
2) I'll give an example. Regarding mumble vs TS: among the people who care at all, it seems most of them prefer mumble. But you (I say you because you are the most vocal host in this thread but my meaning is the folk/arps decision makers as a whole) are saying "No, It's going to be TS, Mumble sucks." without even considering a vote or poll or seeing what kinda thoughts the user base as a whole have. Then in the same posts saying "If you have any concerns, feel free to raise them with us". Now I don't care about mumble vs TS (they are both shit), they are an example of this, not the central point of it.
3) It rhymes with socialist agrarian utopia... I was trying to be clever, I thought that was obvious.
4) I personally don't have my ability to think diminished when there are people talking so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
I don't think anyone is trying to downplay anything the admins do. To say none of us contribute to hosting though, have you ever asked if anyone else wants to, or opened it to more people? I would gladly "step up" to do it, but no one knows who I am, I have no special arma skills, coding or otherwise, and probably wouldn't even be considered for it.
Originally Posted by Tigershark
The issue I think a lot of people are feeling is they essentially woke up one morning and suddenly their favorite arma community was different. No warning(that I saw), no public opinion polls, just up and changed one day. That will always create friction.
Also I don't think I ever said it but congrats on the baby.
Last edited by Macaco; 07-12-2012 at 04:35 PM.
Reason: fucking quotes man. shit is bananas
Can't we all just get along?
It feels like all of this is splitting the community.
2. We have given the reasoning behind why TS3 is more beneficial. It isn't people just saying mumble sucks and that is it. If we give it a go and it causes genuine problems then there is reason to see what we can do about it but there is not giant majority in favour either way and the functionality of CC in TS is very useful in sessions. As to the dismissing of comments I haven't seen many instances of that in here, we are well aware of the thoughts on mumble/TS as we have had this discussion many times before.
3. It wasn't massively obvious.
4. It is not the ability to think so much as allowing people to talk without having to fight through banter to ask/tell people stuff.
Regarding stepping in as host, i have numerous hinted on it.
But alas for i am useless or something <3
Lesser Hivemind Node
Head, you were never called up for two reasons: your posting style is wildly variable (there's a mods night event you did the AAR thread for which was completely unintelligible to anyone) and you get as angry as I do. Calling for suicide charges too often gets silly! Also you never know who reads these things.
On TS3 vs Mumble, the hosts picked TS3 for the following reasons:
- Hotkey CC toggle (something the mumble devs saw no value in)
- Extensions for mass moving people (because "IT IS A JOKE" like to push people around)
- The rest of the Arma community uses it for ACRE *
Whereas with mumble you have
- other people playing different games on the same server (which is cool; even when I played arma every day, I played other stuff too)
- It also has a working overlay for more people. The only one I ever got to work for TS3 caused me to crash after an hour or so.
- Better default settings. It's almost like the mac of voip, except free! (this does bite both ways if you really need a tonne of scripting extensions)
- MuMo, which resulted in the BF2 PR version of mumble AFAICT, but never quite got off the ground for ARMA.
- Also built-in positional audio, though BIS need to fix it so you don't need Jay2ARMAlib to make it reliable.
Now, to reply to the * and reply to the comments about Folk having a bigger presence in the armaverse (THIS IS STORY TIME, NOT ARGUMENT TIME). I'm mostly trying to explain why I think that ARPS was the bigger 'brand' (and as has already been pointed out, Folk and ARPS were both mentioned in Dizzles' ShackTac post):
ARPS never recruited from the armaverse. It never had a group/recruitment on the forums, and any posts on there that mentioned ARPS were mostly related to bugs or mission scripting. I'm stretching to think of any of those beyond incidental F2 development stuff. This was pretty much intentional.
Recruiting through the 'usual' channels is pretty difficult. You have to compete with the big guys like ShackTac, UO, TG, etc. Then there are the mid-sized national teams like LDDK. Then there are the smaller interest groups, cliques, etc etc etc. You have to have a great pitch, something unique to sell you and put in a tonne of effort. And good luck getting anyone to give up their precious ACE/ACRE/TarantulaBots or whatever. Hell, you use anything other than Teamspeak and you get flamed for doing it wrong. One of the more prolific modders in charge of ACE and Domi had a ragepost against Dwarden on the CIT because Dwarden wanted to implement open communication protocol hooks (which would let any voip software basically do positional and some other stuff without resorting to hacky addon workarounds).
When ARPS was very young it was basically all domi and banter all the time. Nobody else wanted a piece of that but it was new and novel enough that we got loads of fun out of it. As things dragged on and we set up our own server we tried to organise things such that every mission didn't devolve into the two dreaded conga lines: Crates and Revives! This move produced some of the most enduring content for the ARPS vets. However, we wanted to get bigger and share the love.
The thing about arma is that it IS pretty daunting. It's walking around for 40 minutes and getting shot out of nowhere over and over again. It's getting killed by walking onto the wrong piece of geometry. It's lining up a perfect shot, killing a dude, then getting rifle grenaded by a dozen of his buddies from just out of sight.
Our pitch was more along the lines of "play with us, we don't require competence, we don't require mods, we don't require salutes, we do require fun". We wanted to pick up new players instead of the ones who'd been playing since Op Flash. Partly because vets'd expect things being done a certain way which wouldn't necessarily mix with our definitions of fun. Being on RPS is great for that - with enough prodding Jim'd post a front page article and we'd get 40-60 new faces who'd "bought the game but never tried it". By simply being part of an existing community, which was in turn sustained by a site that gets hundreds of thousands of unique visits each day, we had/have massive exposure. It has to be said that the return rate was pretty piddling compared to the popularity of the site until DayZ, but arma is a niche game after all.
This neatly avoided the entire zero-sum game and politicking/drama of the main bisforums scene. We never, ever demanded exclusitivity, and made fun without dicking around the goal. When dicking around got too much I invented TT. (Read: Stole the name from somewhere else... I think it was the goons)
When Fer first approached us he was pretty surprised we were insistent on revive missions. When I explained that we basically wanted to have fast fun, keep new people happy and above all make sure nobody sat on their thumbs for 40 minutes to an hour he agreed. In response he made Lechtenfield(sp), the ?only F2/Folk revive mission to date. It was pretty good fun and from there things progressed until you get to where we are now.
(Coincidentally I first started to fall out of love with arma when we played a big 80 man coop and I got to spend three hours shouting at people to space themselves out and then driving a truck full of ammo around to resupply BTR60s. I didn't see a single goddamn enemy or fire a round. Funnily enough I've never, ever met a person who wanted a logistics role in a truck, yet you'll find three dozen people who will drop everything should you mention a chopper.)
I'm sure nobody is still reading by this point so I'll spare the details of the ARPS/Folk relationship.
I also won't go into the backstory of Folk, because it's kind of a personal thing for Fer, Tiger and Headspace. But I will say that within a month or two of putting a standing invite to RPS players there were basically 3-4 of the original Folk guests per session, down from about 15. Some nights it was just Fer. Folk was also originally a vetted, invite-only "community" (insert page on what Folk was/wasn't here) and running on borrowed resources so the intermingling of the groups helped them a lot more than you may realise from the BISforums thread.
For making things more welcoming to newcomers, all I can say is I've had some pretty bad rageouts in the past about people misrepresenting the group and being offensive to new players. There's no real way to ensure new people get slotted with good FTLs because nobody wants to FTL all the time. There's also usually a shortage of FTLs so people have to step up despite not being confident in the role and being unable to keep on top of new guys, orders from the top, their team and their own status all at once.
We never really put up any training material here because that stuff gets terrifying. Tell someone who just bought the game blind to read the TTPP (which is probably the best training material out there) and a good number of people will decide it's just not worth the effort. Others will love it, then play and take an unlucky bullet early on, have a horrible time and uninstall. Summarised stuff is good, but really the attitude was always "play with us, all you need to be able to do is WASD and listen/ask questions". It's why the welcome message for the server included the most basic of "use / for text chats" for so long.
(Also Kataras deserves a nod for saying he isn't a massive donor when he not only is but went to unusual lengths to make his donations)
Other stories I have:
Why Dizzle TERRIFIES me.
How I "pissed off" TG/UO without knowing about it.
(Neither is very long, but I think this is enough of a wall of text for now)
The past 4-5 months of playing with folk/arps have been some of the best of my entire time in gaming. The folk session on sunday nights is something I always look forward to. The tactical tuesday session was what got me back into arma. I've made good friends here
We should stop this. We all play arma. We all enjoy arma. We should continue to play and enjoy arma together. I do not want to see this oh so wonderful community fall apart due to a petty spat over names, a VoIP programme and level of seriousness.
I may be overstating it a bit, but hopefully you get my point.
To anyone who fears the worst, please don't!
I'm hosting this coming FA Sunday Session, I'm yakking it up with Tiger tomorrow to make sure we don't repeat the hilarity of the last workshop's Strela-to-the-tail-rotor (chalk that up to me not paying attention to what groups I was spawning and that f***ing broken teleport action), I'm lining up the missions now, and hopefully I'll have a special treat to close it all out on if all goes well. If not, then, well, I'll improvise somethin'!
Please come! Have fun! The technical issues and socialist agrarian issues can continue to be ironed out, but Sunday is Funday. This Yank can't wait to send you all to your bloody deaths.
Edited for EMPHASIS!
Secondary Hivemind Nexus
It's going to be the same people playing either way, massive drama is silly.
That said, I never saw ARPS as a clan or formal group. It's a bunch of people who enjoy playing Arma together. Talk of mergers and such seems bizarre to me. Whatever happens, the gameplay is going to remain pretty much the same. All you're doing is adding extra barriers that are going to put off new players. RPS is a popular site, many new players in the past were people who already had forum accounts here or visited the Steam chat. Folk is an Arma group. A friendly and welcoming one, but outwardly, to a new player, they'll look like pretty much any other gaming clan. Even if the content is the same, trying to make a brand out of what was a bunch of people playing games will dissuade some from joining.
No further comment required.
Originally Posted by Wafflynumber
Just a minor thing wrt the mumble thing posted:
Originally Posted by Nullkigan
I am not sure if this is a significant reason to use it for sessions though. Mumble can used outside of sessions still.
For the other paragraph I just wish to make it known I strongly agree with it. It is something that has been done by hosts (being short with people for the most part) and non-hosts as well.
Nullkigan tell us the story how you pissed of TG/UO
Ooh! I want to hear that!
Originally Posted by Head
I third to hear the story from uncle Null!
No, tell us the story of why dizzle (god that is so much easier to type than dyslexczi) scares you! Does he sacrifice virgins? is that how he got so good at choppering?
Originally Posted by Head