EVE Retribution: Game Changer or Same Difference?

[Blackcompany]

I tried EVE recently. Was very fond of the smaller ships - Cruiser and below - and had worked my way into t2 Frigates before I just...burned out. Took only two months. But during that time I played five nights per week, darned near every week. So there must have been some magic in there someplace.

I think my biggest mistake was staying in a High Sec corp the entire time. I tried to get into low sec but no one would join me. I roamed solo. I won some; I lost more. The only time I really enjoyed EVE in the end was during adrenaline pumping low/null roams, where you could win big - or lose everything - in a blink. That high sec activity funded it was a necessary truth, but my corp just wanted to run missions all the time and I grew bored.

So I wonder whether Retribution might make it worth returning. Maybe even finding a dedicated low or null corp to run with. I can offer t2 Gal frig experience immediately, and load t1 Gallente cruisers and BC's with t2 armor and weapons right now. Plus I love flying the small ships everyone cannot wait to leave behind. So I have something to offer to a corp.

So tell me: Any thoughts on Retribution, in the short time its been out? Has it made a difference for anyone, with new ships and new bounty systems? Or is not really so much a game changer for existing players?

[mpk]

EVE isn't a quick fix game. It either grabs you by the throat and takes years of your life or leaves you cold and emotionless on the side of the road.

The bounty system isn't going to change much, it's just a fix to something that never really worked in the first place, for all that CCP have been shouting about it.

Get yourself in a corp, get to zerozero, and get into some goodfights. There's nothing in gaming that will ever replace the EVE adrenaline rush.

EDIT: I like how the current site advert is for Retribution, but on the forums it's Inferno.

[Blackcompany]

"There's nothing in gaming that will ever replace the EVE adrenaline rush."

Thank you for saying this so...frankly, I guess. Because it struck a chord.

Since I stopped playing EVE about two months back I have tried to find a game that suits me. Something both immersive, and fun. Minecraft. Skyrim. Far Cry 2 (came the closest.) The list goes on. In the end, nothing held my attention.

My girl thought I had gone insane. She didn't understand when I said, "But you never really risk anything in those games. And if you aren't risking anything, you aren't willing winning/succeeding/beating the games."

Now I understand where that feeling came from. Combat in EVE is filled to overflowing with risk. And when you win, its a huge rush. When you lose, its a hard lesson. But success in EVE feels like real success, like overcoming risk and actually, really winning. Whereas "winning" in Skyrim or other AAA games just feels like...inevitability, with the save/reload mechanic still so prevalent.

I think perhaps I will try and free up the time for EVE once more. I don't miss the mining/trading - I recognize the necessity of risk-free Isk to fund high risk pasttimes - but I do miss low and null sec roams, and goodfights.

tl;dr: What is winning, if you cannot ever really lose?

[DevinSmoth]

I played the trial of EVE Online a while ago and feel in love with the game... However due to budget constrictions and time constraints I can't play the game. Again, steam almost got me to play... But I just don't have the time or money to play... So fun though... And all I did was ruin around doing missions for a couple of weeks.

[gundato]

"There's nothing in gaming that will ever replace the EVE adrenaline rush."

Thank you for saying this so...frankly, I guess. Because it struck a chord.

Since I stopped playing EVE about two months back I have tried to find a game that suits me. Something both immersive, and fun. Minecraft. Skyrim. Far Cry 2 (came the closest.) The list goes on. In the end, nothing held my attention.

My girl thought I had gone insane. She didn't understand when I said, "But you never really risk anything in those games. And if you aren't risking anything, you aren't willing winning/succeeding/beating the games."

Now I understand where that feeling came from. Combat in EVE is filled to overflowing with risk. And when you win, its a huge rush. When you lose, its a hard lesson. But success in EVE feels like real success, like overcoming risk and actually, really winning. Whereas "winning" in Skyrim or other AAA games just feels like...inevitability, with the save/reload mechanic still so prevalent.

I think perhaps I will try and free up the time for EVE once more. I don't miss the mining/trading - I recognize the necessity of risk-free Isk to fund high risk pasttimes - but I do miss low and null sec roams, and goodfights.

tl;dr: What is winning, if you cannot ever really lose?

I suggest looking into some online gambling games. Those might be up your alley

[unruly]

You maybe want to try to join a corp like Rifterlings, who almost solely do cheap roams with cruisers/frigs. Or get into one of the Exodus alliance corps. Exodus are hardcore about their PvP though, and from my experience their comms are full of random chatter during roams since they expect everyone to just "know" exactly what to do. But Exodus did have their team just place 3rd in the Alliance Tournament, so it's not like they don't know what they're doing. They just sort-of expect everyone to be on the same level as them.

Or you could try joining a corp that's involved in Faction Warfare. I've never done it, but from what I understand the biggest ships you're likely to be in for FW are battlecruisers. I've heard it's a decent way to make money too, though that was changed a bit with Retribution. The downside to FW is that it ends up cutting you off from half of highsec space, because you're "at war" with all of Caldari or Minmatar or whoever.

On the other side of things, RPS Holdings has been ramping up for the last month or so. I'm actually a member there, but don't quite have time to play these days. As of late, according to our forums at least, there have been scheduled roams about once a week so far. It's not a lot, but it's better than nothing. We've also got a couple set fleets that we're going to start flying with now that Retribution is out, but pretty much any frigate will do for tackle jobs until you find exactly what you want to fly. For instance, I'm a cheapskate who sucks at making money, so I can barely afford to fly cruisers in PvP. As a result I trained myself up to interceptors and can now fly at insane speeds and tackle everything with little risk to myself from the people we're fighting. Unless they get drones on me, and then I'm made of paper, but such is the life of the interceptor pilot. Oh, and I can't solo PvP in an interceptor, but I never really solo anyways.

If you want to talk to the RPS Holdings guys, then join the "RPS Community" channel in game and start talking. To talk to someone about recruitment look for Kuro Akishima, Hoarr, or Eben Rochelle. I'm sure they'd be glad to talk to you, look you up on the killboards, and generally be founts of bile and hatred. Actually, that last bit isn't quite true until you've been with the group for a while. Oh, and if they start spamming you with Spock porn, don't take it as an insult. It's just their way of showing affection.

[Bios Element]

I'd encourage you to join up and find yourself a corp. I just resubbed with some of my corp mates and the first thing we did was move out into nullsec. It's a bloody blast. If you'd care to join us, We do run voice comms and don't have spock porn in the channel. >.>

[Mohorovicic]

Retribution, as great as it is, will not fix lowsec. You still need balls of steel to go there, and as such will always be mostly empty, with the game split almost exclusively between highbears(hiding behind CONCORD) and nullbears(hiding behind wall of blues and gatecamps).

[unruly]

We do run voice comms and don't have spock porn in the channel. >.>

Hey, we don't normally put the Spock porn in the corp channels, it's reserved for private chats and local(when we're taunting people that run from us). Now, there are exceptions, like when people who try to roleplay pop into the community channel, but that's usually only after we've messed with them in other ways.

Also, we have voice comms as well, but sadly it's ventrilo. I much prefer mumble, which is what we were using for a while, but, well, there were issues with that and I won't get into it because as far as I'm aware it's a done deal.

[mpk]

Oh god, still with the spock porn?

[Blackcompany]

Some good points here. I'm thinking of joining back up over the weekend. Likely will do. And definitely moving out to low/null sec. High sec is boring. I really burned out quick just floating about, mining all day every day. PVP, on the other hand...that gets the blood pumping.

[unruly]

Oh god, still with the spock porn?

Indeed. Though it's really not so much porn as it is a bunch of pictures of Spock and Kirk in loving embraces with a few strategically placed pics of the Stabber's model.

Some good points here. I'm thinking of joining back up over the weekend. Likely will do. And definitely moving out to low/null sec. High sec is boring. I really burned out quick just floating about, mining all day every day. PVP, on the other hand...that gets the blood pumping.

Well, like I said, RPSH is recruiting and we've been ramping up for a move out into null once we get everyone acquainted and experienced with PvP and figure out what everyone is going to be doing in the fleet. Scheduled roams have been happening at least once a week, and from the sounds of things pickup roams are happening pretty often too.

[Mohorovicic]

High sec is boring. I really burned out quick just floating about, mining all day every day.

Did someone force you to mine? You could rat, or run missions, or be a courier, or a trader, scan for cosmic anomalies/sigs, or scam a newbie friendly corp for free ship and ISK.

That kind of thing really pisses me off - people who go all "I quit EVE because mining is boring". Well, yeah, it is fucking boring! But who is at fault here, the game or the person who kept on doing a boring fucking thing even though he had like a dozen more fun/involving alternatives?

[unruly]

That kind of thing really pisses me off - people who go all "I quit EVE because mining is boring". Well, yeah, it is fucking boring! But who is at fault here, the game or the person who kept on doing a boring fucking thing even though he had like a dozen more fun/involving alternatives?

To be fair, pretty much everything that's possible to do in high sec is boring as hell. And it's because there's practically no risk involved. You've got to go into low or null to do anything really entertaining, but prepping yourself to go into low can be a bit hard. Going from near-absolute safety to absolutely no safety at all is quite the shock. I'd prefer to join a corp in sov null before joining one in low, to be honest.

[Mohorovicic]

That's like saying every single player game ever is boring because "there's practically no risk involved".

[popej]

"There's nothing in gaming that will ever replace the EVE adrenaline rush."

Thank you for saying this so...frankly, I guess. Because it struck a chord.

Since I stopped playing EVE about two months back I have tried to find a game that suits me. Something both immersive, and fun. Minecraft. Skyrim. Far Cry 2 (came the closest.) The list goes on. In the end, nothing held my attention.

My girl thought I had gone insane. She didn't understand when I said, "But you never really risk anything in those games. And if you aren't risking anything, you aren't willing winning/succeeding/beating the games."

Now I understand where that feeling came from. Combat in EVE is filled to overflowing with risk. And when you win, its a huge rush. When you lose, its a hard lesson. But success in EVE feels like real success, like overcoming risk and actually, really winning. Whereas "winning" in Skyrim or other AAA games just feels like...inevitability, with the save/reload mechanic still so prevalent.

I think perhaps I will try and free up the time for EVE once more. I don't miss the mining/trading - I recognize the necessity of risk-free Isk to fund high risk pasttimes - but I do miss low and null sec roams, and goodfights.

tl;dr: What is winning, if you cannot ever really lose?

I played Eve for going on 6 years at the highest level (putting in serious hours). I gave up in 2009 and still don't really feel ready to go back after a few aborted attempts. I know it's an annoying cliche but with family, work and buying a new house I'm not sure I could fit it in these days.

It is (imo) and remains, just about the best game ever made for the very reasons you state above. The ambition behind it back in 2003 was, and remains staggering. It's also the most 'human' of games despite being set in space. Human behavior really is exhibited at it's best and worst (I know what I mean). The adrenalin rush when you're part of a small roaming gang fighting the odds is unmatched.

In the end the alliance life and trying to lead 400-500 man fleet got the better of me. At the same time though, the later alliance stuff was probably the most rewarding time I had in Eve.

The game kinda died for me when BoB did. They were the 'big bad guy' so when they imploded the universe was suddenly bereft of real meaning (for me personally). Fighting the goons and morsus mihi etc was all well and good but never the same as the "good ol' days".

/history rant

I will return at some point and perhaps Retribution will pull me in again.

edit: Oddly, Dark Souls is probably the most similar experience I've had to Eve. Perhaps because of the risk/reward mechanics.

[unruly]

That's like saying every single player game ever is boring because "there's practically no risk involved".

Except that in EVE high sec PvE there's no possibility of an involving story or any potential variation that might make doing the same things over, and over, and over, and over again worthwhile. It's just go do X, get paid, go do X again, repeat ad infinitum. It's like a JRPG that never ends, has no max level, and only has about 100 different types of enemy. After so long you're going to have fought every enemy and learned the tricks to beating them, and practically nothing is going to make it fun again. I'd actually contend that it's worse than a lot of MMOs in how grindy it gets if all you do is PvE in high sec.

Oh, ok, I get to kill <insert pirate faction>, let's go shoot some guys! *3 hours and 15 missions later* Oh hey, I'm doing that same mission I did 3 hours ago for the 3rd time! Let's try a different agent.

This guy wants me to deliver something to a system 5 jumps away. Ok. *3 hours and 15 missions later* Oh hey, another "deliver X" mission! I bet it's going to be followed by a "pick up X" mission! Maybe it'll be the one where I have to snatch it out of a container while some rats spawn in! I'm going to go scan some stuff instead.

*scans for an hour* Why am I only finding wormholes!? Oh wait, I'm in high sec and so I'm competing with every other highsec carebear out there for the same limited number of sites. Maybe I'll get lucky... *scans for another hour* Huzzah! I found a DED 3 complex! MOTHERFUCKER! Some asshole in a Tengu just came in and stole my officer kill and his valuable loot... Lets go ratting.

Wait, why am I ratting again? I'm doing the same thing as I was with those combat missions I was running and I'm making less money because I'm no longer killing battleships en masse. Let's go trading!

Well, I'm making a lot of money, but I have to manage a whole bunch of spreadsheets and keep such a close eye on market prices in so many different systems that it's like I'm a stock broker. I wanted to play a game, not get a second job that I pay to do.

EVE's PvE has to be the worst thing about the game. Doing the PvE stuff in low or null isn't as bad as doing it in high, because you have at least some risk of losing your stuff to other players and that adds some uncertainty to things, but doing it in high is just plain boring. It's the PvP that really makes the game. Though I will say that the PvE is a necessary evil because it's what allows the PvP to have such high risk and be such a rush. I mean, PvP would be a lot less of a rush if you didn't have anything actually invested in it. Which is why I find a lot of PvP systems a lot more boring than EVE's - If I lose I can just jump right back into the fight with no repercussions. In EVE that just simply isn't the case.

I realize that I'm generalizing, and exaggerating a bit, but I'll be damned if someone is going to convince me that EVE-sans-PvP, playing in high sec only, is capable of being fun for more than a few weeks of regular play(2 hours a night). It just isn't. Trust me, I've tried off and on for the last 3 years to have fun doing just that. It wasn't until I started PvPing this year that I was willing to keep my subscription active for more than a couple months at a time. And in the past, most of my sub time was spent just logging in to update skill queues because I had stupidly signed up for a 3+ month deal thinking "this time will be different."

In short, I'm of the opinion that EVE just simply isn't capable of being fun for extended periods of time without risk being involved. And seeing as how it's EVE, that risk tends to come from PvP in one form or another. Sometimes it's in the form of actively looking for fights, or from wardecs, and fairly often from simply being away from high sec space and running into a few pirates at the wrong time. Outside of the initial learning period there's no real risk from PvE unless it's somewhere that the risk of PvP is also present. So wormhole, low sec, and null sec PvE can be fun because there's the risk of being caught unawares by someone else and suffering for it. But high sec PvE is as dull as dirt.

[popej]

PvE only is a means to an end in Eve tbh. I tend to agree with the above.

[Mohorovicic]

Except that in EVE high sec PvE there's no possibility of an involving story or any potential variation that might make doing the same things over, and over, and over, and over again worthwhile. It's just go do X, get paid, go do X again, repeat ad infinitum.

This is how all MMORPGS work.

[Blackcompany]

Ok. I should rephrase some things. And clarify. Clarification is good.

First: I never said that burning out from mining was anyone else's fault. Relax, folks. I freely acknowledge that remaining in high sec pretty much of the time, was my own decision. A poor choice, to sign on with a high sec only corp. Good fellows, but it made for boring gaming. Regardless, the mission running/mining only corp was my choice, and if I went back, I would do things differently.

So there - acknowledged that I brought that on myself.

To address single player games being boring: I think that, for players who enjoy risk/reward scenarios in gaming - and here I mean real possibility of loss, and the feeling that this enhances the satisfaction of victory - I think for these players, EVE changes you. Or at least, it changes your taste in gaming.

It changed mine.

Since EVE, I have sought to recapture, in a single player game, the same adrenaline pumping, real risk, real reward feel of combat. I have not succeeded. XCOM comes very close. You can really suffer loss in the context of the game and it makes victory that much sweeter. Dark Souls would have nailed it, but death is often cheap in Dark Souls, with its tendency to define difficulty in terms of single hit kills and half hour walks back to the boss in which to ponder the one single blow you do know, before being smashed by the second single hit kill strike. Repeat ad infinitum, at least for someone like me whose greatest strength is not fast-twitch control of onscreen avatars.

But EVE's single greatest offering to gamers - and to gaming - is I think the way in which it makes every action meaningful. In a universe where defeat means real losses that can truly set you back, your every decision has consequences. Choosing to participate in Faction Warfare or high level missions, can lead to valuable faction standings and riches - or weeks of scraping by, trying to mine, mission and trade back into enough Isk just to get back to where you were before your "bad" decision. It is not for everyone; but this is I think EVE at its best: making ever single choice count, in some small way, and making you live with those choices.