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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    I hate Valve. It doesn't sell games, it leases them in the fake term of "sell".

    I also don't like the idea that PC being consolized. Even my old man can look for the applications he needs, all by himself (my mon cannot, however. Seems like it's true women are generally less proficient of machining). We just dont need Valve to direct us. If I need so, I would look for Mac. There is no place for you, Valve.

  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    I hate Valve. It doesn't sell games, it leases them in the fake term of "sell".

    If you look at any EULA for any software almost every publisher does this or at least attempts to.

  3. #83
    Network Hub Donjo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    I hate Valve. It doesn't sell games, it leases them in the fake term of "sell".

    I also don't like the idea that PC being consolized. Even my old man can look for the applications he needs, all by himself (my mon cannot, however. Seems like it's true women are generally less proficient of machining). We just dont need Valve to direct us. If I need so, I would look for Mac. There is no place for you, Valve.


    Seems like it's true, arguments are difficult to take seriously when their authors promote blatant stupidity.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    It's really not as easy to say "Oh, I'm just not going to use steam, I'm going to use this instead". Ok, you can do it, but then all those games you want that publishers keep making Steamworks games, say goodbye to legal copies of those. Which is something a lot of you seem to be overlooking.
    I think we're having to different conversations here. I'm not saying that coming up with something that's a real Steam competitor now is an easy feat. It's not. For all it's faults, Steam does provide good service, one unmatched by anyone in the business right now. And yes, customer habits do play a role here.

    What I'm trying to say, is that Steam is in no position to maintain it's dominant market share if it stops being a good service. Because apparently that's what people are worried about. That Valve will gobble up all opposition and then reveal it's ugly face in a cheap opera move. But it's not going to happen. Steam is a re-distributor with no control over supply. It's existence depends on third party content. If they fudge up so bad that people will not want to buy it from them (or do business with them), there will be someone who's willing to do it better.

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjonson View Post
    Seems like it's true, arguments are difficult to take seriously when their authors promote blatant stupidity.
    Arguments? I didn't see any. Just a wasted chance to shut up.
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  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Seems like it's true women are generally less proficient of machining
    I hope your mother slaps you.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I hope your mother slaps you.
    ...with a toaster.

  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjonson View Post
    I just want to point out that the "limited" definition you're refusing to accept is pretty much the standard universally accepted definition of the word....
    Except it isn't. Go look at the term "walled garden" or "closed platform". Some people consider Win8 a closed platform because of the Windows Store (and GabeN is trying to push that perspective). Steam is a walled garden/closed platform - Valve decide what will be there, even with Greenlight in place, and if they don't want to sell it, you're not going to be able to buy it from them. I can jailbreak an iPhone or install custom apps onto an Android phone, but the iOS store/Google Play store is still a walled garden.

    Incidentally if you think I'm arguing over the definition of a monopoly, I'm not - HMV's first response to me was over the term "walled garden" which is what we're disagreeing about. If you think I'm talking about the definition of a monopoly, you're not reading properly. I've never disputed the meaning of monopoly, except to disagree with someone who decided that the adjective "near" can't be used. I've consistently stated that Valve don't have a monopoly, but they definitely are aiming in that direction and it's clear that they would love to have a near-monopoly on digital distribution for gaming. And the fans would love that too. Plenty of retail games now require Steam, they've made major inroads to that goal already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I didn't as I was quoting someone else quoting you.
    No, you quoted me. You took part of one post and added it to an excerpt from another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I'm frankly baffled as to how the Steam limiting choice/monopoly/whatever argument happened again out of this story.
    I'm pointing out that GabeN has a hate on Windows 8 because Microsoft introduced a store (which has nothing/little to do with x86 apps and poses no threat to Steam), while at the same time pushing for greater dominance of Steam and shows every sign of pushing towards having their own SteamOS where Steam is the included store. Does nobody find that a bit hypocritical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    That wasn't actually aimed at you and was a general remark
    Except I'm pretty much the only one who isn't on Valve's side here, so it pretty much is directed at me... and it's entirely inaccurate because nobody's suggesting there's an evil monopoly.

  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post

    I'm pointing out that GabeN has a hate on Windows 8 because Microsoft introduced a store (which has nothing/little to do with x86 apps and poses no threat to Steam), while at the same time pushing for greater dominance of Steam and shows every sign of pushing towards having their own SteamOS where Steam is the included store. Does nobody find that a bit hypocritical?

    It's becuase this has nothing to do with greater dominance of Steam and doesn't even imply SteamOS. Hence it's leaping to conclusions and not hypocritical. GabeN did rather overstate the Windows 8 thing, but this isn't really similar so isn't hypocritical just irrelevant.

  10. #90
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    It's becuase this has nothing to do with greater dominance of Steam
    Really? I mean, really? This isn't move aimed to spread Steam further and get more market share? Then why on earth even do this?

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    It's becuase this has nothing to do with greater dominance of Steam and doesn't even imply SteamOS. Hence it's leaping to conclusions and not hypocritical.
    Are you serious? So Valve are just doing this for the good of all PC gaming? Valve are a business, they are out to make money. Valve clearly are interested in their own Steam box and you can bet that they'll push their store to the forefront. Whether they base it off Ubuntu or anything else doesn't really matter - they're pushing Steam as a store. As Kaira said - why the hell would you even bother if it isn't to gain market share? Especially in a Linux world where you can become the biggest fish in the pond by default?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    GabeN did rather overstate the Windows 8 thing, but this isn't really similar so isn't hypocritical just irrelevant.
    "Overstated" is an understatement... and yes, it is hypocritical. People were led by GabeN to believe that Windows Store introduced in Win8 was going to be the death of x86 apps and blah blah blah and Microsoft are evil etc, only to drool uncontrollably at the prospects of a Steam box with SteamOS with Steam as the store. Valve would love to achieve that goal and I have no doubts they're working on it. It's a logical step for them to capture even more of the market. And it's basically what GabeN was bitching about.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    And how are GoG going about convincing big name publishers to let them sell brand new games without DRM? The newest AAA game they have is what, AssCreed 1 without counting the Witcher games because, well the same company owns both GoG and The Witcher.
    Actually, the newest AAA games they have besides The Witcher 2 are Alan Wake (2012) and ArmA II Combined Operations (2010).

    If single player game design were still like it was in 2010 and earlier, I think it would be possible to persuade many publishers to launch their SP AAA games on GoG simultaneously with other storefronts. Anyone even slightly clued in on the developer and publishing side knows they have nothing to lose by doing that. I think the real obstacles to that happening in the future are
    1) All of the AAA crowd is doing DLC. GoG has no mechanism for DLC purchases (though implementing one should be easy even without compromising on DRM).
    2) Single player games are no longer single player. Some devs want to maximize their control and manipulation ability over the customer. Some probably genuinely believe players want tacked on multiplayer, "social", cheevos, etc. Some might have that crap simply as a carryover from their console version where they designed it to convince players to not trade the game in right away.
    3) Either way the game has transformed into a service connected to some kind of proprietary network platform and DRM is all over it. Even if they know the DRM doesn't do a thing to pirates, they'll probably think they need it to protect their server system, to make cheating harder (in a single player game, lol) or something. Ripping the networked features out of the game in order to put the game on GoG might be a decent amount of work, might remove some actual value, might cause the GoG release to be perceived as "less than", and even the opposite situation where everyone recognizes the features are worthless and does not mind their removal would be a little embarrassing.

  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    ArmA II Combined Operations (2010).
    That's still a fairly niche game (except for DayZ, which is set to go standalone anyway, and most of the people playing DayZ couldn't care less about the rest of the game).

    Otherwise I agree with the rest of what you're saying, particularly the DRM aspect. Hell we can't even get devs to rely only on Steam for DRM. Even xbox 360 games have got uPlay infecting them these days, which is complete bullshit. There's no way GoG would be able to maintain DRM free policies with AAA games, and unless it gets AAA titles, it's not in the same ballpark as Steam.

  14. #94
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That's still a fairly niche game (except for DayZ, which is set to go standalone anyway, and most of the people playing DayZ couldn't care less about the rest of the game).

    Otherwise I agree with the rest of what you're saying, particularly the DRM aspect. Hell we can't even get devs to rely only on Steam for DRM. Even xbox 360 games have got uPlay infecting them these days, which is complete bullshit. There's no way GoG would be able to maintain DRM free policies with AAA games, and unless it gets AAA titles, it's not in the same ballpark as Steam.
    I think it would be better to say that games with limited plans for DLC (ArmA2 DOES have DLC that can be bought seperately) and no multiplayer or social aspects (achievements) are the niche games.

    And GoG has slowly been coming closer and closer to allowing third party DLC. Many of their more recent games (Far Cry 2 for example) require external logins for multiplayer and the like.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Hell we can't even get devs to rely only on Steam for DRM.
    Well, that's because Steam DRM is a joke.

  16. #96
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Well, that's because Steam DRM is a joke.
    Interesting... perhaps you'd like to explain why? I know it's not undefeated (but what DRM is?) but it's been fairly successful in that people actually like it.

  17. #97
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    So Valve are just doing this for the good of all PC gaming?
    To a large degree they are, actually, yes. Because the continued health of PC gaming is at the core of their business. Their business has been built entirely on the health of PC gaming and they're only in the strong position they are now through helping strengthen the attractiveness of the PC as a platform for developers in the face of powerful commercial consoles and up against closed systems that, on certain technical levels, favour big publishers.

    So yes, they are a business and are obviously interested in continuing to be a business because there'd be no point in them existing otherwise and yes, they are doing this for the good of PC gaming. Because that is their business and their business is built around an open platform with a healthy non-Steam ecosystem surrounding it.

    Microsoft, in case you hadn't noticed, don't quite share the same concerns here. As in, not even slightly.
    Last edited by RobF; 12-12-2012 at 07:43 AM.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Interesting... perhaps you'd like to explain why? I know it's not undefeated (but what DRM is?) but it's been fairly successful in that people actually like it.
    "Like" is a bit much. How about "pisses people off less than most competing forms of DRM"?

  19. #99
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    So yes, they are a business and are obviously interested in continuing to be a business because there'd be no point in them existing otherwise and yes, they are doing this for the good of PC gaming. Because that is their business and their business is built around an open platform with a healthy non-Steam ecosystem surrounding it.
    So, without dressing it up, you're basically admitting that they're in it to make more money. Thought so.

  20. #100
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Yes! Good spot. 10/10. A winner is you.

    Because funnily enough, no-one needs to dress that up. No-one needs to hide it away and pretend it doesn't happen because helping PC gaming and the PC gaming ecosystem to thrive and making money from that are not mutually exclusive things.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

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