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  1. #2461
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChainsawHands View Post
    The idea would be that we'd all be restarting with new teams.
    Yes, of course. Sorry, I should have worded that differently. What I meant was that there should be enough time between the resets to experience the development of your team in the league and not having to gut your half-baked gang of monster men before they have learned how to hold a ball.

    Quote Originally Posted by grinn
    The problem with that is new players joining will have to either start with virgin teams (we could take a fuckit approach to this)
    Nicely put. :)

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by ChainsawHands View Post
    There are a couple of problems: one is that you're much more likely to go for SPP-generating plays that you might not risk if you were just trying to win.
    This is very true. I have had corresponding situations with the Human team I am bringing into the league next season quite a few times already. When I am playing a match of BB I am trying to play to the best of my abilities and to make good (i.e. safe) decisions when possible. It just doesn't feel right.
    Last edited by Squiz; 17-07-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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  2. #2462
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ChainsawHands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    Yes, of course. Sorry, I should have worded that differently. What I meant was that there should be enough time between the resets to experience the development of your team in the league and not having to gut your half-baked gang of monster men before they have learned how to hold a ball.
    Ah, yes, that seems eminently sensible.

  3. #2463
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    You all know where I stand as we’ve had this conversation many times. Resets and developed teams are totally unnecessary and counterproductive. The current rule set was specifically designed to remove the need for a Crush, reset or any other artificial means of balancing long term leagues with the need for fresh blood. It works, tried and tested. Open teams should only ever play in the Open, although I’ve always felt a reasonable halfway house would be to allow teams from the Divisions entry.

    Perpetuating the internet coach TV paranoia doesn’t remove a barrier of entry: it creates one. How many coaches have dropped out/decided not to join stating they didn’t have time to build a team? I can recall some every season. It isn’t seen as an option but a requirement. Rather ironic considering last season the younger teams recorded far better results on average than their bloated brethren and that was in no way unusual.

    Resets are fundamentally a bad idea as it renders long term races unusable. At the extreme end take Nurgle. If all goes well a Nurgle team takes at least 30-35 games before it can have title aspirations assuming all coaches are on a par. If you are going to reset after 50 games who is going to bother with that long slog when the league will reset just as you reach the point where you can compete? If you are going to wait long enough to make Nurgle viable contenders then the reset becomes almost moot, two years plus down the line with the slow pace of RPS BB.

    Building a team while playing against your rivals is a major element of BB strategy as is using inducements well. We take a lot of variety of play out with the current rules and the Open is a poorer competition for it. Heavy inducements are also by far the biggest threat to health of established heavy weights so you actually make the long-term disparity worse by protecting them from these challenges.

    I imagine a CE reset will be with us after next season. That would be a good moment to close the door once and for all on open Open entry. The ‘fuckit’ approach is the right one, the one the game was designed for and the one that works fine on TT. Trouble is the internet obsession with TV would probably just result in coaches thinking it was impossible and not even trying to learn how to play that style of BB.

  4. #2464
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    I like the idea of a reset but I'm not sure how it could be implemented fairly. Even if it was determined on the size of the league some teams are just better are the start of their life (Orcs, Zons) than the end (Nurgle, Vamps). I don't think a feeder league would work either. Even if it was OK for one season and one or two teams got promoted, presumably a fair proportion of teams in the feeder would try again the following season which would just create the same problem all over again. It could only work as a feeder if it was reset every season, and that would mean everyone except the winner would have to abandon their team (along with whoever was relegated from the top div) and try again from scratch. It would also almost certainly make it impossible for gobbos or flings (and probably Underworld when the time comes) to get into the top level, which may or may not be a good thing depending on your point of view.

    The best thing I can think of is to split the Open into two, a top tier and a bottom tier. Any team that's been in the Open before, or a brand new rookie team, can opt to play in the top tier if they want to, but only rookie teams can play in the bottom league (or possibly previous Open teams below a set TV value like 1500 or something). No formal relegation or promotion, coaches choice at the end of the season. It'd depend on there being enough coaches in the bottom league for people to be able to level up their players enough to be competitive (perhaps they could play each other twice if there were many more coaches in the top tier), but it would keep everything in house. Better to encourage new coaches in with a softer ride than just having an ever shrinking pool of people to play against.

    *Edit* Zoraster makes excellent points that I agree with, but from the position of being a bloody good coach compared to most of us mortals :p
    Last edited by NieA7; 17-07-2012 at 03:26 PM.

  5. #2465
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoraster View Post
    You all know where I stand as we’ve had this conversation many times. Resets and developed teams are totally unnecessary and counterproductive. The current rule set was specifically designed to remove the need for a Crush, reset or any other artificial means of balancing long term leagues with the need for fresh blood. It works, tried and tested. Open teams should only ever play in the Open, although I’ve always felt a reasonable halfway house would be to allow teams from the Divisions entry.

    Perpetuating the internet coach TV paranoia doesn’t remove a barrier of entry: it creates one. How many coaches have dropped out/decided not to join stating they didn’t have time to build a team? I can recall some every season. It isn’t seen as an option but a requirement. Rather ironic considering last season the younger teams recorded far better results on average than their bloated brethren and that was in no way unusual.

    Resets are fundamentally a bad idea as it renders long term races unusable. At the extreme end take Nurgle. If all goes well a Nurgle team takes at least 30-35 games before it can have title aspirations assuming all coaches are on a par. If you are going to reset after 50 games who is going to bother with that long slog when the league will reset just as you reach the point where you can compete? If you are going to wait long enough to make Nurgle viable contenders then the reset becomes almost moot, two years plus down the line with the slow pace of RPS BB.

    Building a team while playing against your rivals is a major element of BB strategy as is using inducements well. We take a lot of variety of play out with the current rules and the Open is a poorer competition for it. Heavy inducements are also by far the biggest threat to health of established heavy weights so you actually make the long-term disparity worse by protecting them from these challenges.

    I imagine a CE reset will be with us after next season. That would be a good moment to close the door once and for all on open Open entry. The ‘fuckit’ approach is the right one, the one the game was designed for and the one that works fine on TT. Trouble is the internet obsession with TV would probably just result in coaches thinking it was impossible and not even trying to learn how to play that style of BB.
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  6. #2466
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoraster View Post
    Opinions
    You make some good points there and I agree with most of them. The thing with Cyanide's Blood Bowl is that the amount of inducements is fairly limited compared to TT and even FUMBBL. I am not an experienced enough coach to list the critical shortcomings but if you have look at the rather short list of Star Players available to some of he teams, it is obvious.

    Having said that, I am willing to throw my 1600TV Humans overboard and start a fresh team for the next Open season. I might even learn something from that.
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  7. #2467
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    I am not an experienced enough coach to list the critical shortcomings but if you have look at the rather short list of Star Players available to some of he teams, it is obvious.
    I'm also much less experienced, but isn't the answer skilled mercs? I've never done it, but can't you take skills for your merc players at the start of the match?

    Of course, you are still limited to 16 players, and if you have all the positionals on your roster already then you might be looking at skilled merc linemen only.

  8. #2468
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    [QUOTE=Zoraster;161684]How many coaches have dropped out/decided not to join stating they didnít have time to build a team? I can recall some every season. It isnít seen as an option but a requirement. Rather ironic considering last season the younger teams recorded far better results on average than their bloated brethren and that was in no way unusual.[QUOTE]

    A point of order - The league's own spreadsheet says that people should bring developed teams rather than new teams. You can't blame "internet coach TV paranoia", when your own spreadsheet tells people that they shouldn't bring fresh teams.
    Last edited by Everblue; 17-07-2012 at 04:00 PM. Reason: why can't I get the jeffing quote to work?

  9. #2469
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LowKey's Avatar
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    Yes i think skilled mercs are the ticket, the problem i have with them is that they are potentially taking spp from your actual players which makes getting a full team of skilled players a slower prospect

  10. #2470
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    I'm also much less experienced, but isn't the answer skilled mercs? I've never done it, but can't you take skills for your merc players at the start of the match?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowKey View Post
    Yes i think skilled mercs are the ticket, the problem i have with them is that they are potentially taking spp from your actual players which makes getting a full team of skilled players a slower prospect
    Mercs are limited to 1 skill each and no double skills, and they come with Loner attached. They're also extremely expensive for what you get. (+30k on the base cost of the player, +50k for one skill). They have their uses but can't fill the hole of a seasoned player.

  11. #2471
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    I did not know that - thanks Screwie.

  12. #2472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    A point of order - The league's own spreadsheet says that people should bring developed teams rather than new teams. You can't blame "internet coach TV paranoia", when your own spreadsheet tells people that they shouldn't bring fresh teams.
    It should be self evident that as these rules were ever adopted Iím obviously referring to existing/past coaches not just potential newcomers. This is hardly surprising since it was a valid mindset borne out of experience with the handicap table in older rule sets used online typically in vanilla settings without the house rules required to make long term play work. For a generation of coaches this was the only exposure to the game they ever had. It has become a major issue because you often have the oldest and most respected members of a community who canít/donít want to adjust their thinking and instead pollute the thinking of newcomers with the false paradigm.

    If FUMBBL didnít exist Cyanide wouldnít have ever contemplated making TV based MM. It defies all logic post LRB4. However they knew damn well the mindset of the internet community wouldnít accept anything else.

  13. #2473
    Lesser Hivemind Node Jiiiiim's Avatar
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    Part of the problem on cyanide is that the inducements aren't fully implemented, so if you want to use those little utility star players, or a chainsaw, you just can't. I feel like a completely new team has the chance of getting mullered in its first match without much scope to rebuild, though, so I wouldn't want to join the open with one. 1300-ish is about what I'd be happy to try.

  14. #2474
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    I'll do it. I'll do it with 1000TV Wood Elves next season, even. Azlop bagged his white whalemazon, his work is done.

  15. #2475
    Network Hub Prester John's Avatar
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    Zoraster, sorry i'm not going to have enough clear time tonight, can we try tommorow (weds), same time?

  16. #2476
    Network Hub Prester John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President Weasel View Post
    I'll do it. I'll do it with 1000TV Wood Elves next season, even. Azlop bagged his white whalemazon, his work is done.
    I started this season with a new Wood Elf team. The problem with this is that its unfair on the teams you meet later when you've built up your team as compared to the first games where you're easy meat for anyone.

  17. #2477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prester John View Post
    Zoraster, sorry i'm not going to have enough clear time tonight, can we try tommorow (weds), same time?
    I really can’t do short notice most of the time Prester. Two hours is a big old wodge of time for me I’m afraid, and tomorrow I certainly can’t as we are heading out for a meal. I think Friday is out for sure too, but should be able to free up time on Thursday if that works for you?

  18. #2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prester John View Post
    I started this season with a new Wood Elf team. The problem with this is that its unfair on the teams you meet later when you've built up your team as compared to the first games where you're easy meat for anyone.
    Wood Pansy teams are just about the best team to play this way on Cyanide. One turner threat out the box and they are one of the few teams who actually have the star you want included in the game. Gaze + Wizard + Wardancer is as near an 'I win' button as you get in a game with so many dice rolls.

  19. #2479
    Network Hub HughTower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janek View Post
    Rightoh.

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    Janek - so you know, I am here. Maybe I should have confirmed that earlier, but I am.

  20. #2480
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus laneford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChainsawHands View Post
    Sorry 'ford, I'd seen your earlier message and thought it meant you wouldn't be around on Sunday night. How would Wednesday or Thursday night be?
    Wednesday fine, thursday, bad.

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