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  1. #4341
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President Weasel View Post
    Minotaurs have mutation access without needing a double. Rat ogres need a double to get claw.
    Minotaurs make chaos teams worse. Rat ogres are awesome and make skaven teams better.
    I submit the controversial opinion that you're just not using minotaurs correctly!

    *flees*

  2. #4342
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    I am using them correctly. There are 3 main builds - 'roadblock' minotaur, generally with tentacles; killer minotaur with claw; and not-in-the-team minotaur, which is the one I use and the best one.

  3. #4343
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ChainsawHands's Avatar
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    AKA "not buying your opponent a wizard every game" minotaur. Pweasel speaks the truth, that's the best one.

  4. #4344
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sinister agent's Avatar
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    Minotaur seems pretty redundant to me, on a team that already has four ST4 players with the same strength and mutation access, but with decent agility and no chance of standing around doing nothing every time you try to use them.

  5. #4345
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    At high TV chaos your opponent will be getting a wizard pretty much every game anyway. Above about 2300 TV I'd be looking to take the mino.

  6. #4346
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Preface: So I was just teasing PW, mainly.

    That said, I am well aware of the common opinions of minotaurs. However when most of the complaints against them can be levelled equally against other Wild Animal big guys (especially rat-ogres and bloodthirsters, who are similarly pricey yet seen as good-to-mandatory for their respective teams), well that does bug me somewhat.

    First, a Chaos team giving away a free Wizard is less of a problem and much less likely to result in injury than a Skaven team doing the same. (And as Everblue says, Chaos is built to bloat. When you start with 60k players and no skills, there's no way around it.)

    Second, why take one? Having that ST5/6 player is most useful against those few teams that Chaos has the hardest time out-bashing, Orcs, Khemri, Nurgle, etc. They're also the quickest and easiest (and cheapest) way to get a ST5 MB/Claw killer on your team.

    The minotaur is not going to shine brightest on the Chaos team but that's only because, unlike Skaven or Khorne, the entirety of the Chaos team is brilliant at the same kind of thing. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a niche to fill, or can't contribute. 170k for a ST5 Frenzy/MB/Claw player is a bargain. 200k for all that and Block? Even better.

  7. #4347
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    It's all about the context. Chaos don't need a bruiser to soak up pressure or bully the other team, they have four str4 strength access mans to do that plus a full supporting cast of str 3 str access mans. If a chaos player is having trouble outbashing orcs they don't need a minotaur, they just need to injure some of the orcs using claw.

    Skaven have two str 3 str access mans. That's it, that's the lot.
    Then they have some low armour general access linemen and some low armour low strength speedsters (who you can make into excellent safety/ball winners, but who are far too fragile and costly to put anywhere near a brawl). Even if you intend to avoid fighting as much as possible on a skaven team, and I'm not sure you should because their mobility really makes them shine when the opposition are outnumbered, a rat ogre is still a useful thing to have.

    A chaos mino, on the other hand, is an expensive way to hand turnovers to your opponent.

  8. #4348
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    Well, what I intend to do is watch how Zoraster gets on without one, and every time he rolls a 1 I'm intending to tell him that "with a Rat Ogre on your team you would never have needed to make that roll."

  9. #4349
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by President Weasel View Post
    It's all about the context. Chaos don't need a bruiser to soak up pressure or bully the other team, they have four str4 strength access mans to do that plus a full supporting cast of str 3 str access mans. If a chaos player is having trouble outbashing orcs they don't need a minotaur, they just need to injure some of the orcs using claw.
    It's easier said than done - especially when the Orc team has more skills than the Chaos team, including more Guard, and while the Chaos coach can't find a 2D block his opponent will be bashing him right back - with just as much MB and likely more Piling On.

    Unless the Chaos player gets leverage quickly, he'll start losing players first and faster than the Orc player. This is exactly where the minotaur helps because sometimes just having ST5 is useful, on offense and defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by President Weasel View Post
    A chaos mino, on the other hand, is an expensive way to hand turnovers to your opponent.
    No more expensive than a rat-ogre, and no more likely to fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    Well, what I intend to do is watch how Zoraster gets on without one, and every time he rolls a 1 I'm intending to tell him that "with a Rat Ogre on your team you would never have needed to make that roll."
    Hahaha :)
    Last edited by Screwie; 04-04-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  10. #4350
    Network Hub potatoedoughnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post
    It's easier said than done - especially when the Orc team has more skills than the Chaos team, including more Guard, and while the Chaos coach can't find a 2D block his opponent will be bashing him right back - with just as much MB and likely more Piling On.

    Unless the Chaos player gets leverage quickly, he'll start losing players first and faster than the Orc player. This is exactly where the minotaur helps because sometimes just having ST5 is useful, on offense and defense.
    High TV chaos should rip apart orcs. You blitz with str 4 and have CPOMB. The orcs will probably have a bit more guard (but chaos should have a decent amount too) but have to make much tougher armour rolls.

    Even if you have a mino you'd rather blitz with a CPOMB beastman than a mino that might just lose you a blitz and will do less damage when he hits.
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  11. #4351
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Assuming the rest of the team is killy enough I think the roadblock build has a lot of utility to it, especially against agile teams - tentacles/stand firm/juggs gets you into a cage next to the carrier who then will have difficulty escaping, doubly so if you run a warrior or two in behind.

  12. #4352
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    Quote Originally Posted by potatoedoughnut View Post
    High TV chaos should rip apart orcs. You blitz with str 4 and have CPOMB. The orcs will probably have a bit more guard (but chaos should have a decent amount too) but have to make much tougher armour rolls.

    Even if you have a mino you'd rather blitz with a CPOMB beastman than a mino that might just lose you a blitz and will do less damage when he hits.
    I think the point is that not every chaos player will have CPOMB - there will only be one or two. The rest are normally not too bad. The beastmen only have AV8 too. My understanding of the general strategy for the orc coach is to push into contact with the chaos and make it a war. If both sides stand off each other and blitz then that favours the chaos coach whose blitzes are deadlier. If both sides are trading punches in a scrum though then the orc coach does better.

    That's what I've been told, anyway.

  13. #4353
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus laneford's Avatar
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    I'm going to give my high elves one last hurrah this season. I assume I can just leave them in the league?

  14. #4354
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    I think the point is that not every chaos player will have CPOMB - there will only be one or two. The rest are normally not too bad. The beastmen only have AV8 too. My understanding of the general strategy for the orc coach is to push into contact with the chaos and make it a war. If both sides stand off each other and blitz then that favours the chaos coach whose blitzes are deadlier. If both sides are trading punches in a scrum though then the orc coach does better.

    That's what I've been told, anyway.
    That's true, although another way to parse "push into contact" is "give the other side some free hits". You'd have to survive that and not get most of your mans pushed back into space, but if you can do that then the chaos mans are probably in a bit of trouble - however, I fail to see how an unreliable minotaur cursed with a mixture of frenzy, loner, and probably no block is supposed to be helpful in that kind of close quarters melee with a guard-heavy team. It's a recipe for frenzying yourself into trouble.

  15. #4355
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Because ST5 - or ST6 if you have to, if 5 is not enough. That's 1-2 additional Guard-based assists you can ignore in a crunch compared to your ST4 players.

    Then once the minotaur has shoved some Guarding guy out of assist's reach (doubly so with frenzy), it opens up chances for your other players in the scrum to bash with 2D. If the minotaur itself is a Guard player you might be moving another assist into a better spot, as well.

    Of course you have to calculate where and what your 2nd block will be from Frenzy, and there will be times its unworkable. It's an option, you evaluate your chance of success and cost of failure like any other option.

  16. #4356
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    You're a big wrongo. Now sit there in your wrongness and be wrong.

  17. #4357
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    Quote Originally Posted by President Weasel View Post
    That's true, although another way to parse "push into contact" is "give the other side some free hits". You'd have to survive that and not get most of your mans pushed back into space, but if you can do that then the chaos mans are probably in a bit of trouble - however, I fail to see how an unreliable minotaur cursed with a mixture of frenzy, loner, and probably no block is supposed to be helpful in that kind of close quarters melee with a guard-heavy team. It's a recipe for frenzying yourself into trouble.
    True

    When I played for Zoraster recently for the first time he gave me some advice about concentrating on controlling space to reduce the incoming damage to my players , and I've been trying to watch lots of bash games recently with the idea of space control in mind. When I watch really good coaches now the moves that impress me the most are often really subtle and don't involve blocking at all - just being in exactly the right place to deny moving assists in, getting players on the wrong side of the ball, stuff like that. I find those sort of "quiet" moves the hardest to replicate in my own play.
    Last edited by Everblue; 05-04-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  18. #4358
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    I find those sort of "quiet" moves the hardest to replicate in my own play.
    Elves are like bowling with the barriers up in comparison. Screw up your formations? 2+ dodge with rerolled, 2+ pass with reroll, 2+catch with reroll Touchdown! Have another go at your formation.
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  19. #4359
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Elves are like bowling with the barriers up in comparison. Screw up your formations? 2+ dodge with rerolled, 2+ pass with reroll, 2+catch with reroll Touchdown! Have another go at your formation.
    I think it is pretty much established that Elves are easymode Bloodbowl.

  20. #4360
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if I feel moral playing as elves at times, but then I foul a +ST blodge gutter runner and I feel better about it.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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