This is why games are dumbed down

[Nalano]

Standard boilerspeak for "we want to increase our brand."

[dnf]

All the Halo's have it though. And Half Life 2 as you said.

I dont remember crouch jumping in the first halo, but its been a while. Damn that was the wrong video, i should have look to the half life jump fail with the jump music from that hair metal band i forgot the name XD.

[Kadayi]

The guy who got fired from Gamespot for giving Kane & Lynch a negative review, while the publisher of said game was advertising on Gamespot.

I think Nalano is joking.

Also Gerstmann has cleared up that whole firing thing now. Strangely enough it wasn't because EIDOS demanded it as everyone believed.

[Sketch]

@dnf

It happens quite a lot, I think it even reduces fall damage.

[dnf]

I think its irrelevant if he was fired because Eidos or not. He was fired because he gave some games bad scores and that should ring a bell around the issues of trust in the media. Now, he should have been fired because he is a incompetent douchebag XD.

[arccos]

Holy cow! That was appalling. Sure, it's his first time playing Half-Life but he should really pay more attention.
Half-Life is not the only game that has this jumping mechanic. I think most Valve's Source engine games have it in there, HL2, CS:S, TF2, right? It can't be that new, unless you're a console gamer I guess.

It's not really a matter of paying attention, though. The player clearly has some good ideas about what should work. Trying a crate, a barrel placed on its side, etc. Crouch jump is an idiotic practice, and the idea that the character misses a jump by an inch he can gain by crouching is ridiculously bad design. It forces the player to keep trying what seems like the correct action because you are failing by such a narrow margin.

In this case, he just didn't know that was needed, and tried to use the tools available to solve the problem. It was pretty excellent to see someone try alternative solutions.

Additionally, the idea that dropping into the water is not a solution is silly, too. You can do this on a regular basis in Black Mesa (and other games in general), so making a part of the game where this is possible but results in instant death breaks consistency in the game. Black Mesa makes this a bit worse because you get the sound of the splash and a fade out, suggesting maybe if you hit the right spot in the water or immediately try to surface, the player could complete the puzzle that way.

[Okami]

It's not really a matter of paying attention, though. The player clearly has some good ideas about what should work. Trying a crate, a barrel placed on its side, etc. Crouch jump is an idiotic practice, and the idea that the character misses a jump by an inch he can gain by crouching is ridiculously bad design. It forces the player to keep trying what seems like the correct action because you are failing by such a narrow margin.

In this case, he just didn't know that was needed, and tried to use the tools available to solve the problem. It was pretty excellent to see someone try alternative solutions.

Additionally, the idea that dropping into the water is not a solution is silly, too. You can do this on a regular basis in Black Mesa (and other games in general), so making a part of the game where this is possible but results in instant death breaks consistency in the game. Black Mesa makes this a bit worse because you get the sound of the splash and a fade out, suggesting maybe if you hit the right spot in the water or immediately try to surface, the player could complete the puzzle that way.

Yeah, that video is an example of horrible game design, not of a player not paying attention.

[SirKicksalot]

I have vague memories of a HL tutorial course where you learn about crouch jumping. Is it included in Black Mesa?

[Vandelay]

Also Gerstmann has cleared up that whole firing thing now. Strangely enough it wasn't because EIDOS demanded it as everyone believed.

Not the most reliable source, but the Kane & Lynch Wikipedia page says that they weren't playing nice over the issue. March this year the non-disclosure agreement ended and it has come out that Eidos did threaten to pull advertising from Gamespot over the review. I expect he wouldn't have been fired if it wasn't for those threats. Pretty poor show on Eidos and Gamespot for giving in.

Also, crouch jump is the most ridiculous mechanic. More games should feature mantling. Or more games should be Mirror's Edge, when it comes to first person movement

[MadJax]

I have vague memories of a HL tutorial course where you learn about crouch jumping. Is it included in Black Mesa?

Unfortunately not, The Hazard Course wasn't included because (if I remember what they said on their site correctly) most modern players "are familiar with standard game controls"

I appreciate that a lot of us are, but Half Life 1 is the most recent example that comes to mind (It's been a while) of a tutorial done right. That's to mean that it's a separate option within the menu for those new to the game, and it's integrated well into the lore of the game.

I don't mean that in the rose-tinted glasses way either, when I do my yearly play through of the first one, I tend to start with the Hazard Course first off, not to brush up, but in the mind set that it's Freemans first day in the HEV :)

[b0rsuk]

It's not really a matter of paying attention, though. The player clearly has some good ideas about what should work. Trying a crate, a barrel placed on its side, etc. Crouch jump is an idiotic practice, and the idea that the character misses a jump by an inch he can gain by crouching is ridiculously bad design. It forces the player to keep trying what seems like the correct action because you are failing by such a narrow margin.

Hmm, let's see. I can crouch jump in meatspace. I've done it to get into places I wouldn't reach otherwise. Do I need to post pictures ?

[Bankrotas]

Wasn't he just trolling?

[Nalano]

Hmm, let's see. I can crouch jump in meatspace. I've done it to get into places I wouldn't reach otherwise. Do I need to post pictures ?

Gordon Freeman, Parkour Specialist. (Theoretical Physicist is more of an informed ability, isn't it?)

Or, why crouch-jump when climbing would be more akin to what the character would do?

[MadJax]

Gordon Freeman, Parkour Specialist. (Theoretical Physicist is more of an informed ability, isn't it?)

Or, why crouch-jump when climbing would be more akin to what the character would do?

Realistic Compromise: Engine limitation of the first Half Life that wasn't remedied in the second :P

After all, he's the only Theoretical Physicist (Granted I don't know many) that can hold off an entire invasion from 2 different sets of extra-dimensional beings, handle ANY type of firearm proficiently (regardless of the fact he's been literally out of the loop for 10+ years) and still cannot overcome chronic shyness ;)

[Maurish]

It's not really a matter of paying attention, though. The player clearly has some good ideas about what should work. Trying a crate, a barrel placed on its side, etc. Crouch jump is an idiotic practice, and the idea that the character misses a jump by an inch he can gain by crouching is ridiculously bad design. It forces the player to keep trying what seems like the correct action because you are failing by such a narrow margin.

I've always thought crouch-jumping was a great addition. I'd rather have it than "Press space to climb" and then have a few seconds long cut-scene while the character is climbing. It might not be the most reasonable thing to do in reality but it keeps the flow of the game in those jumping sections.

You seemed to be able to jump higher in the original HL but you had to use crouch-jumping in those situations.

He had great ideas, like you said, but they just don't work very well without crouch-jumping.

Additionally, the idea that dropping into the water is not a solution is silly, too. You can do this on a regular basis in Black Mesa (and other games in general), so making a part of the game where this is possible but results in instant death breaks consistency in the game. Black Mesa makes this a bit worse because you get the sound of the splash and a fade out, suggesting maybe if you hit the right spot in the water or immediately try to surface, the player could complete the puzzle that way.

I noticed that one as well when I played through Black Mesa. If I remember correctly, that wasn't the case in the original HL. I'm quite sure you didn't see what was down there. I might be wrong here but that's how I remember it in HL and how speedrunners managed to be quick enough to just jump across before the railing was destroyed.

[dnf]

I've always thought crouch-jumping was a great addition. I'd rather have it than "Press space to climb" and then have a few seconds long cut-scene while the character is climbing. It might not be the most reasonable thing to do in reality but it keeps the flow of the game in those jumping sections.

You seemed to be able to jump higher in the original HL but you had to use crouch-jumping in those situations.

He had great ideas, like you said, but they just don't work very well without crouch-jumping.


I noticed that one as well when I played through Black Mesa. If I remember correctly, that wasn't the case in the original HL. I'm quite sure you didn't see what was down there. I might be wrong here but that's how I remember it in HL and how speedrunners managed to be quick enough to just jump across before the railing was destroyed.

The "problem" with black mesa is that they designed the game with the half-life1 audience in mind. So this comes as a huge trolling atempt by the designers for newcomers who try a physic based solution over a crouch jumping based solution. Well, the way i see the trolling pays off XD.

[sinister agent]

Hmm, let's see. I can crouch jump in meatspace. I've done it to get into places I wouldn't reach otherwise. Do I need to post pictures ?

If you need to crouch to jump onto a knee-high barrel, there is something terribly wrong with your bones.

Also, I don't recall it being necessary in the original, until you get the long jump module in the last quarter or so of the game. And the tutorial was an optional, separate game mode.

Besides which, it's a bad mechanism. Yes, you can get a little higher by crouching first in real life, but you also need to reach out and turn the handle and pull the door to open it in real life. Games automate those things because it would be annoying and monstrously dull to have to go through multiple pointless extra stages with special controls to carry out basic actions.

[Nalano]

Games automate those things because it would be annoying and monstrously dull to have to go through multiple pointless extra stages with special controls to carry out basic actions.

Well, to be fair, Mirror's Edge got away with having all of two buttons for the entire Z axis: Up and Down. Climbing was the same button as jumping, and it was rather intuitive just how high you could get.

[TechnicalBen]

For a company, a stupid customer is worth as much (if not more - easier to manipulate) as a smart one. The same applies to democracy.

Sad but true. I am for smart customers. Because they know not to upset me... um, I mean they see the value I can give. :D

[Namdrol]

On the VGA panel, too?

So, basically, this thread is "games journalists are hacks."

It's a bit more important than that. Games need good metacritic scores, so game companies have to tailor games to game journo's tastes.