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  1. #261
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Orcs are too cheap both at the beginning and end though, which is unusual as most teams that are a bit off at any given stage of their life tend to be OK elsewhere. I've seen the argument that their bash game suffers late on compared to Chaos/Nurgle due to a lack of claw, but it doesn't seem to hurt them that much. I think I'd start by limiting them to 2 Blitzers and pushing the cost of the Black Orcs and Blitzers up a bit. I'd also add 'flings to the human roster for the giggles.

    To be honest it's genuinely impressive how well balanced the game is though. There's only a few problematic rosters (Orc, Human, Khemri, Ogre, arguably Chaos, WElf and DElf) and even they aren't so terrible. It'd be nice if hybrid teams didn't get ripped apart by high level bash quite so much though.

  2. #262
    Activated Node Delusibeta's Avatar
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    Street Sweeping Scrubs (Delusibeta) 0 - 2 The Ball Curse (Rotekian)

    While Nuffle showed slightly less homicidal tendencies for my squishy humans, he still had his flag planted firmly on the other end of the field. Still, I'll freely admit that this loss was mainly due to me making tactical cock-ups than him making his influence known. First half went well initially: the thrower managed to pick up the ball first time, for example. However, I was quickly trapped in my own half, and an attempt to break free late in the half resulted in the ball carrier getting blitzed, the ball stolen and then the elves running down the pitch and scoring. The second half started better for me, threatening the ball carrier, who proceeded to escape. A couple of turns later, I'd trapped him again, succeeded in knocking him down... only for a nearby team-mate pick up the ball. More bashing later resulted in the ball breaking free behind my defensive line. A risky strategy involving moving a dood to grab the ball (successful), passing the ball downfield (missed) or catching the rebound (fumbled) and definitely not getting the ball out of play and thrown into the middle of the field for the elves to grab and seal the game (guess what?). I will admit I was outplayed here, and was well deserving of the wooden spoon of the bottom tier.

    Complaining about Nuffle time: the ogre had a crap game. Three attempts to blitz, three times Bonehead occurs. No long-term injuries, thankfully, although again my opponents got free turns on the first kick off in both halves, and again the apoth was cashed in before regulation time (thankfully he did his job this time). Checking the stats, 40% of my D6s were 1s and 2s, which is a bit better than the 50% I had last game, but still.



    Ahead, I'll probably carry on with my team for a second season in tier 4: White Von Mann has leveled up, and I've got enough money to replace my dead catcher (RIP) with a Blitzer for more bashy.

  3. #263
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    The Ball Curse 2-0 Street Sweeping Scrubs

    A Boneheaded Ogre and some intervention from Nuffle turned what ought to have been a close game into a much more comfortable 2-0 win for the Ball Curse. On the Dark Elves' side, Marlen the journeyman replacement lasted 3 turns before being sent off with a career ending injury. When the Ogre wasn't boneheaded or failing to tackle the ball carrier, he was sending players off the pitch. Fortunately for the Ball Curse none were quite so heavily injured as Marlen.

    The first half look set to devolve into a cage brawl during the opening drive of the Street Sweeping Scrubs. The Dark Elves managed to gain control of the ball, but were still locked in the melee. Fortunately for the Ball Curse; once the Ogre finally worked out he was supposed to tackle the ball carrier, he failed to more than push the slippery dark elf blitzer back towards the Dark Elves' own half. The Blitzer then managed to dodge away from the less agile Ogre to deliver a short ranged pass that was quickly converted in a touchdown.

    At the beginning of the second half, the Ball Curse opened with a Quick Snap that left most of the team on the left flank. Unfortunately a coaching mistake left a big hole on the far left that the Street Sweeping Scrubs quickly sent a Blitzer of their own through to take down the ball carrier. At this point Nuffle intervened and the ball bounced into the hands of a nearby Dark Elf in a secure position. From there the Dark Elves attempted to break out towards the empty right flank, but the humans successfully repositioned to prevent an easy score. Another brawl began, although the humans were getting the better of the engagement this time around.

    The humans got a hold of the ball, but a dropped catch left the ball rolling off the pitch. The throw in landed at a good spot for the Dark Elves and a perfect launch into tight hands sealed the score.
    Last edited by Rotekian; 10-01-2013 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Formatting.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    But anyway - 10k or 20k of initial cost is nothing at high TV. Increasing orc blitzers to 90k would add 40k to the TV of a developed orc team. Hardly any change. What it would do is impact on starting rosters and low TV tournaments and leagues.

    You are conflating two issues - underpriced positionals and high TV performance.
    As Nie says Orcs are a bit special in that regard in that through their Blitzers both low and high level performance are linked. Blitzers at 80K makes them good at low level as you can takes your full compliment of strength positionals in your starting roster, plus your big guy and still have 2 re-rolls. Drop the Troll and you can start with 3 re-rolls and the full compliment of 8 strength positionals, 4 of whom come wi the all important block.

    At high TV level, sure it's only 40k but because they get 4 Blitzers it's a multiplier effect. If they only had two Blitzers then they'd only have max 7 players with native Strength - then for the Throwers or Lineman to bulk up would cost another +10 over the standard skill increase. If Orcs only had 2 Blitzers they would have to actually play with some non-fantastic players on the pitch, and would have to pay for the privilege of making those players better.

    If you accept my proposition that Human Blitzers are over-priced by 10 and Orcs are underpriced by 10 then when Humans meet Orcs the overall effect is a 80K difference just from the Blitzer differential which is no longer only anything at low, medium or high TV.

    EDIT: Throw in my Catcher complaint and it's a 120k team difference.
    Last edited by Alistair Hutton; 08-01-2013 at 08:41 AM.

  5. #265
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    I'm not disagreeing with you that orc positionals are underpriced, nor that 9 players with ST access depresses TV at high levels, I just think that these are two issues.

    I also think that humans are underpowered as a team, although I do like the look and feel of the team, which is more important in some ways.

    EDIT And orc linemen are amazing, as I said. We might find that the difference with fewer blitzers would be less than we expect, because 9 armour on a lineman is utterly brilliant.

  6. #266
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Personally I think orcs just need to lose the thrower. No pass, no sure hands, no p access. BANG.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  7. #267
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mrpier's Avatar
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    Can't say I see any problems with the Orc roster, the humans sure. The catchers there could use a little bit of a buff.

  8. #268
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    There are lots of tweaks that can be done to the Human roster (that have been suggested multiple times) but I've just ran across a rather off-the-wall suggestion on talkfantasyfootball that I rather like.

    Make the Throwers AG 4, with the commensurate price bump of course (so 100k in all likelyhood). Everything else stays the same.

    It seems so brilliant an idea. Their move of 6 and limit of only 2 of them means they don't impinge on Skaven territory in any way. They don't obsolete any of the elf rosters as linemen with AG4 is, and always will be, super sweet. The Throwers being AG 4 makes the Catchers worth their money as it will be more likely the ball will be thrown to them.
    Last edited by Alistair Hutton; 08-01-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #269
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mrpier's Avatar
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    Yeah, that is interesting, haven't seen that proposed before.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpier View Post
    Yeah, that is interesting, haven't seen that proposed before.
    I like it because, to me, it doesn't disrupt the overall Human-ness of the Human roster and doesn't step on toes. They are still jack of all trades. They still start out as worst agility side and the worst bash team. Yet at the same time it gives the Human team a kick up the kazi and, crucially, star power. I think that's what's missing from the Human roster as is, it has no star power. AG4 Throwers would be stars, players you could build a team around, of whom legends would grow.

    AV 8 catchers are more likely though. :)

  11. #271
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus groovychainsaw's Avatar
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    AV8 catchers would 'fix' it for me. Although part of the appeal of running humans is not having any one standout position, I don't think that would make much of a difference to humans, beyond giving me a chance to level a catcher beyond level 2 :-).

    Whilst humans don't excel at bashing or agility (although lean towards bashy), I htink their movement is the key to getting the most out of them. A potential 8 players on the pitch with MA7+ is pretty good and is what I tend to exploit, either to run away from bashy teams or to catch up with the agile ones.

    Humans are very malleable and depend a lot on what skills you pick or skills you receive from nuffle. By high TV, you should have a couple of stat-ups and doubles which let you craft a team around something interesting. You have access to all the main categories of skills across your team, so all options are open.
    Last edited by groovychainsaw; 08-01-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by groovychainsaw View Post
    Humans are very malleable and depend a lot on what skills you pick or skills you receive from nuffle. By high TV, you should have a couple of stat-ups and doubles which let you craft a team around something interesting. You have access to all the main categories of skills across your team, so all options are open.
    I have got freakishly lucky with my Human Catchers, Bertolf is 40+ games played, +Mv, +AG, Sprint, Sure Feet, Block. He's no elf freak but he is a modern marvel.

    And then I have a second +AG catcher as backup (Diving Tackle is his only other skill) then two unlevelled catchers in reserve. I'm giving serious though to making one a mobile fouler with DP and SG. Probably woefully bloated in terms of TV and utility but he would be a lot of fun. Able to stick a boot in from half the pitch away.

    You are right speed is the key to Human play. Having MV 8 and 7 is great for playing the screening switch game plan, at high TV though I've found that other teams start being abler have have mobility limiting skills, Tackle, Diving Tackle, Shadowing that exposes the lack of natural AG.
    Last edited by Alistair Hutton; 08-01-2013 at 12:05 PM.

  13. #273
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair Hutton View Post
    You are right speed is the key to Human play. Having MV 8 and 7 is great for playing the screening switch game plan, at high TV though I've found that other teams start being abler have have mobility limiting skills, Tackle, Diving Tackle, Shadowing that exposes the lack of natural AG.
    This is very much what I like about the Dark Elf team, too. Fielding eight MA 7 players makes them a very reactive side. They don't have quite the speed of the Human team (or Skaven, probably the kings of this playstyle) but having ST 3 AG 4 across the board rather does make up for it.

    All this talk has me contemplating trying a Human team out, next...

  14. #274
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    Part of the problem with humans is their team concept predates the stunted stat line introduced in 3rd edition. Rolling so much under the new all-powerful agility banner didnít leave scope for real rookie specialists. Iíve always hated that change and it is why ag4 teams are dominant along with any team that rolls 6+5 on the right skill ups.

    An ag4 human thrower out the gate is way too good. An ag4 human catcher is the same. On the other hand an extra point in throwing skill or cool would be perfect. We could fudge it by giving them strong arm and diving catch respectively but I feel the game as a whole would massively benefit from reverting to separate stats. Just being able to differentiate between rookie runners and throwers is enough to make the change worthwhile for me.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post

    All this talk has me contemplating trying a Human team out, next...
    It is my dream to play in an all Human league to see how the different teams develop. Probably be rubbish in practice bu it could be fun.

  16. #276
    Lesser Hivemind Node cyberpunkdreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair Hutton View Post
    It is my dream to play in an all Human league to see how the different teams develop. Probably be rubbish in practice bu it could be fun.
    I think that would be quite fun. Another idea I'd been contemplating is a 100% rookie human lineman league. I think one would learn a lot about positioning in that situation.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberpunkdreams View Post
    I wonder if the creators of our beautiful game would ever had credited the idea of people having these kinds of detailed discussions almost 30 years later...
    :)

    When you were a kid playing football in the park did you ever think that you'd grow up to talk about inverted wingers, false nines or overlapping full backs?

  18. #278
    Lesser Hivemind Node 20phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberpunkdreams View Post
    I think that would be quite fun. Another idea I'd been contemplating is a 100% rookie human lineman league. I think one would learn a lot about positioning in that situation.
    Namely how to throw the ball to the right team.....

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post

    All this talk has me contemplating trying a Human team out, next...
    Sorry you have to
    <-this
    smart and sexy to play Humans.

    It's a tough bar to clear - not everyone is cut out for it.

  20. #280
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair Hutton View Post
    Sorry you have to be
    <-this
    smart and sexy to play Humans.

    It's a tough bar to clear - not everyone is cut out for it.
    I love it when folks screw up their grammar while making 'smarter than you' jokes :)

    Anyway, I think Underworld (or Orcs, or Vampires, I have quite a queue) are my next choice after my dark elves eventually go the way of all elves. But I will get a Human team into the Challenge League for some fun in the meantime.

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