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  1. #4801
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadsexington View Post
    The skill gap more than makes up the difference. I *deserve* to be in tier 3 and have a long history of blockless rats outbashing my chorfs
    but then shouldn't you be playing other experienced teams that also deserve to be there?
    Last edited by Limdood; 12-10-2013 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #4802
    If i may throw my two cents in regarding to the TV gap faced by new teams, I'm not really sure there's a huge problem.

    Yes, it's not as if you're going to win many games if there's a 400 point difference on average between you and the other teams in the division, but as a rookie team, do you really want to win if that means getting promoted and then flattened by teams even more developed?

    Creating a feeding league only moves the goalposts, so to speak, and does nothing to fix any problems people might have.

    I personally just think it's better to toss teams into the mix and hope for the best, as eventually you'll get there, even if you get beaten up for a few seasons.

  3. #4803
    Quote Originally Posted by Limdood View Post
    but then shouldn't you be playing other experienced teams that also deserve to be there?
    Well, that was a light hearted joke, but to reply with all seriousness -

    if we lumped all the tier 3 teams together by TV we would have less variation in the individual leagues.

    Worse than that, if we kept the current structure, the team that performs best in the lower TV values, matched up against similar teams, will be promoted to the next highest tier against teams that are almost certainly much better than the teams you've avoided by lumping them together in tier 3.

    While I agree that this can be an issue - lumping the teams in tier 3 together by TV woulnd't solve it - it would just delay the beatings by a season and make them far worse for the "winning" team.
    Last edited by chadsexington; 12-10-2013 at 03:19 AM.

  4. #4804
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    facing a TV +500 team when i'm using an 11-player all rookie team, possibly light on positionals, rerolls, and an apothecary is significantly more daunting than after i've got some games under my belt, whether that is 3, 6, or any other number.

    Why? because by then i've bough some spares. could i buy them with inducements? sure, but then if they get the MVP i'm even MORE behind in development than i was (you can't hire an induced loner, only a mercenary granted by being under 11 players). I also have almost certainly bought an apothecary, meaning i'll be spending 50TV on it instead of being stuck spending 100k for one with inducement money each game....that 50k difference isn't much, but its a bloodweiser babe, and can make certainly make a difference in the overall game. I might also be able to pick up some rerolls (again, cheaper than i can induce them).

    I can also match my opponent's pitch removal skills with defensive skills, or offensive skills of my own to make them focus their attention elsewhere. 4 MB players is a lot less scary when i have 4 blodgers i can mark them with or put in the front of my formations. Star players have the same problems as induced loner players, but even more so, since they are already chock full of skills and not only could grab an MVP, but you'll be more likely to use them for crucial plays, since they might have an inbuilt reroll your players lack, or a skill (like block) that reduces turnover chance much more than their loner trait increases it. Relying on those inducements, often in the form of star players leaves teams in a state of incredibly slow growth, perpetual rookieness, or putting the whole game at risk as you either make the key (and often SPP generating) plays with them due to skill differential need OR you make key risky plays to try to transfer the SPP over to a player that needs it by risking a turnover that wouldn't be made with similar TV teams, or would be less risky with a 1200 vs. 1600 than with a 1000 vs. 1400.

    Moving the goalposts DOES solve the "daunting entrance to the league" issue by allowing teams to prepare. Had i known i'd be likely facing 1400 TV teams, i'd have not touched dark elves with a 10 foot pole, i'd be playing a self-sufficient-at-1000TV-team like amazons or a "for fun" team that can make great use of indicements like goblins or 'flings. Not that the dark elves are impossible, but i'd like to go into the game with a gameplan more than "hope my wizard works and the scatter is good and then hope i slow their drive"

  5. #4805
    I'd be fine with allowing a set number of games allowable in a challenge league before entering the tiers to alleviate the TV difference you're going to see with the tier 2 losers and the tier 3 runners up.

    And I wasn't arguing against that, I was arguing against lumping the high TV tier 3 players in the same leagues - thats only going to get you extra smashed if you win your first go through.

  6. #4806
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadsexington View Post
    I'd be fine with allowing a set number of games allowable in a challenge league before entering the tiers to alleviate the TV difference you're going to see with the tier 2 losers and the tier 3 runners up.

    And I wasn't arguing against that, I was arguing against lumping the high TV tier 3 players in the same leagues - thats only going to get you extra smashed if you win your first go through.
    ah, sorry, i misunderstood. So far it seems a lot of people are saying that they don't see a problem with rookies vs. significantly higher TV teams, or "they did it this one time and its not so bad" (i particularly like the "elves are meant to die" comment) and all it feels like to me is saying "ok, these teams just aren't going to cut it - if you're coming in new, and you're unlucky enough to be facing TV giants while using one of the several teams whose standard starting roster is apo-less and/or lacking core starting defensive skills or AV, well, get luckier next time and face only other rookies or roll a different team."

  7. #4807
    Sometimes we get an influx of new people and sometimes we don't. Or, alternatively, you could be Shards, who's going up against three filler teams, all rookies, in his first season with his current team (if I'm not mistaken, he could be returning with his old one)

  8. #4808
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    As a hoary old stick in the mud I loved the 2 leagues per tier old system. I may be able to love Screwie's 3 leagues per tier suggestion.

  9. #4809
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limdood View Post
    (i particularly like the "elves are meant to die" comment)
    I'm slightly bitter because I've played a few elf coaches who simply forfeit as soon as it looks like they're going to lose a significant number of players in a match. In a long term league I feel that skews the pitch in their favour: if an agile team quits it effectively blocks the only thing keeping it in check in the long run (given agile players earn SPP much faster than others).
    Last edited by NieA7; 12-10-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  10. #4810
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    Quote Originally Posted by NieA7 View Post
    I'm slightly bitter because I've played a few elf coaches who simply forfeit as soon as it looks like they're going to lose a significant number of players in a match. In a long term league I feel that skews the pitch in their favour: if an agile team quits it effectively blocks the only thing keeping it in check in the long run (given agile players earn SPP much faster than others).
    but they don't really....they COULD earn SPP faster, if the opponent lets them, but if an orc team is caging up and churning slowly down the field to score in the maximum amount of turns every time they get the ball, where then is the opportunity to gain SPP for the agility teams? the 1 or 2 SPP they might gain from a quick backfield pass or a TD attempt pass of their own is offset by the likely higher SPP the bashier coach is getting from a slow grind and the CAS he's generating on the way.

  11. #4811
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Maybe, but I'm pretty confident that an elf lineman can earn SPP quicker over several matches than a black orc. It's that potential to comparatively easily earn a few SPP on players that are close to leveling that makes elfs much easier to skill up, which, I imagine, is why they tend to be a bit more feeble than their bashier counterparts. As far as I know High and Dark are considered the best elf bets in a long running league, due in the main to their AV8 keeping them in the team for longer.

  12. #4812
    Network Hub grinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NieA7 View Post
    I, being made of sterner stuff of course, will see out my obligations baby or no damn baby.
    Congrats man! The Nobz will present gifts of stuffed squig plushies at our next match.

    As an aperitif to the rain of pile-driven helmet spikes to the groin to follow, of course :p

  13. #4813
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    Ugh, the Nobz - 4 games played, 17 injuries suffered. Please spare our precious groins!

  14. #4814
    Network Hub Darkmalice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limdood View Post
    TV1000 dark elves and Chorfs facing TV1600 lizards and goblins? Its a little daunting
    I have to chip in that I'm really quite crap, even with the extra TV.
    Steam: Darkmalice (the evil smiley one)
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  15. #4815
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    Div B is bonkers.

  16. #4816
    Network Hub Shards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthZombie View Post
    Made a team, filled out the spreadsheet accordingly and submitted for Division I.
    Thanks DZ! Would an admin be able to take a look at Div I and see if any of the other nice people from earlier in the thread have also put a team in?

  17. #4817
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ChainsawHands's Avatar
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    All teams accepted to Div I and I've started the season. Looks like there's a team missing from the spreadsheet but the fixtures match up.

  18. #4818
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair Hutton View Post
    Div B is bonkers.
    Why?tenchr
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  19. #4819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Why?tenchr
    The TV range is 800 between highest and lowest team is, and that's only because AgP's side has about 50 miss next game players. His TV must be off the charts.

  20. #4820
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    You know those games when your chaos can't hurt skaven, when your piling on can't seem to break armour and their piling on hurts you every time they use it? When your agility mutants can't pick the ball up and their normal guys make every dodge roll?

    This was the exact opposite of those games. 20Ps rats snapped like kindling before the might of my chaos army, and his few piling ons bounced off the chaos mans' armour. He failed dodges, failed pickups with sure hands (I am pretty sure he failed one with a Big Hands ag4 man at one point, which is nigh impossible), and even got a pass intercepted at one point.
    He did still have one man on the board at the end of the game though, which is almost a victory given the way the dice were going. He achieved this feat by running as fast as he could directly away from the ball.
    Seriously though, I'd love to bask in my achievement here but I got the distinct feeling the random number generator decided to just hand me the game. There was nothing anybody could have done in 20P's position. It's kind of hard to celebrate a glorious "don't do anything really stupid and the dice will do the rest", although it's definitely better than losing.

    And it does mean I am, at least for now, TOP OF THE ENTIRE LEAGUE!

    Red Skull Reavers (Pres W., chaosmans) 2 - 0 Global Warping (20P, rats)

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