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  1. #6341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    That's right elf boy, whinge about ag4, it's such a curse.
    I don't play elves.

    17% chance to fail a dodge with no reroll and loner is not reliable.

  2. #6342
    Lesser Hivemind Node 20phoenix's Avatar
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    11% with reroll isnt so hot either
    Global Warping (Skaven) - RPS Divisions of Death Champions Seasons 34-36

  3. #6343
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Everblue View Post
    I don't play elves.

    17% chance to fail a dodge with no reroll and loner is not reliable.
    I presume he was talking to me. But whatever, Helio's just jelly.

    11% fail rate is about as good as you can hope for on a Loner lineman. AG3 and Dodge and never have to worry about Loner at all, outside of Tackle. Amazons have it pretty good.

  4. #6344
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus groovychainsaw's Avatar
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    Well, apart from 'don't use loners, fill 11 players at the earliest opportunity' as advice (and i assume you would have done that if you could), the costliness of elves are the balancing mechanism the game uses. Dark elves don't even have the fragility, they only take a slight hit to mobility. If you compare to say, a norse lineman, at 50k with block, a delf only has to get one skill to get block, goes to 90k but has ag4 + av8? That doesn't sound too unbalanced?

    /The game is not perfectly balanced, and maybe they should use fractions of amounts and have different skills cost different amounts etc. to enable more ways to balance things, which is probably easier to do in a digital game. I don't fancy cyanide putting a decent UI together to explain the brave new world if this happened though :-). Also, people like bashing elves. I've had an elf team with 3 players score against me through ridiculous plays, which they are just better equipped to do, so I fully understand chainsawhands stamping all the remaining players off the pitch :-)

  5. #6345
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post
    I presume he was talking to me. But whatever, Helio's just jelly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post
    11% fail rate is about as good as you can hope for on a Loner lineman. AG3 and Dodge and never have to worry about Loner at all, outside of Tackle. Amazons have it pretty good.
    To be honest, journey(wo)men shouldn't be dodging the dodge skill is just to keep them upright.
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  6. #6346
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus ChainsawHands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post
    I'm not really mad, but I will never understand what sense of accomplishment others get from clearing the pitch, particularly so late in a game where it won't affect the outcome. My team was beaten as soon as you went two goals up and I had less than five players. I'd be going for more TDs (use those bull centaurs to good effect), but you cost yourself 3 SPP on a player who wasn't far from levelling up instead!
    I was going for the extra SPP; I even used a GFI to score with my bull a turn early (risking your KOs coming back, although they all stayed down). If I'd been playing for the pitch clearance I'd have stalled there and just kept hitting you.

    But it got to turn 16 and I looked around and realised there was only one elf on the pitch: clearly a sign from Nuffle! I had a 25/36 chance to foul him and still score, and even if I didn't score it wasn't enough SPP to level the hobbo. And it was a loner, so I wasn't even hurting your team!

    I've scored TDs before, I've won matches before. I don't think I've ever cleared the pitch before. Now I have: Nuffle vult!

  7. #6347
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by groovychainsaw View Post
    Well, apart from 'don't use loners, fill 11 players at the earliest opportunity' as advice (and i assume you would have done that if you could), the costliness of elves are the balancing mechanism the game uses.
    Perpetually broke. I've got 140k after the past five games, 50k of that from the last game. Five games ago I lost four linemen in one match (to a non-bashy side and a whole heap of Nuffle). I was already trying to replace players, but it's been a barrel of fun since then!

    Dark elves don't even have the fragility, they only take a slight hit to mobility. If you compare to say, a norse lineman, at 50k with block, a delf only has to get one skill to get block, goes to 90k but has ag4 + av8? That doesn't sound too unbalanced?
    Full-time elves are fine gentlemen and worth every penny (except maybe assassins (on both counts)). My point is that a norse lineman with Loner is much more useful and would be worth closer to 70k than a dark elf lineman with Loner.

    That the better one is 50k is bonkers and says to me the system is flawed, not that it's balanced by the notion their comparative worth is reversed for permanent players.

    Also, people like bashing elves. I've had an elf team with 3 players score against me through ridiculous plays, which they are just better equipped to do, so I fully understand chainsawhands stamping all the remaining players off the pitch :-)
    Boooo. I see I will get no sympathy from the boss. :P

  8. #6348
    Lesser Hivemind Node 20phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post
    My point is that a norse lineman with Loner is much more useful and would be worth closer to 70k than a dark elf lineman with Loner.
    The Norse lino is only 3% more likely to stay on the field from a 2d hit than the dark elf lino while gaining a 16% increase in mobility and ball handling. I know which i'd prefer!
    Global Warping (Skaven) - RPS Divisions of Death Champions Seasons 34-36

  9. #6349
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    An Ag4 dodge/pick up etc with loner is more likely to suceed than an Ag3 one without loner - playing elves just gives coaches a skewed perspective on risk. An elf lineman would qualify as a star player on any other team, I suspect elves in general make the best journeymen in the game.

  10. #6350
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    Part of the problem in comparing journeymen is the combination of fragility and high cost unique to elf linemen, particularly given the usually higher-risk elf tactics. Means elves are likely to have more trouble financially handling a high player turnover, leading to a much higher chance of needing multiple journeymen. Whereas high level bash teams can often have millions in the bank, enough to replace the entire team after a bad game - even if not, their linemen are specialists in being low-risk roadblocks, rather than the universalist elves.

    Also dwarf blockers are miserable and boring, which doesn't help - would be in favour of swapping block for another thematically-appropriate starting skill (stand firm? dauntless?) which should increase diversity in builds a little, rather than entire teams of MB/Guard.

    Would also like a bank rule (i.e. anything over X in the treasury counts towards TV) to present the same risk of failure cascade to cheap, high-AV teams as elves face.

    Still, could be worse - it was only in LRB4 that journeymen didn't exist. All but four players MNG? Start with four, and suck it up (also they count toward TV even if they're missing). Brutal for elves.
    Last edited by Janek; 08-04-2014 at 07:10 PM.

  11. #6351
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    I've heard that bank rule before and I like it. The only recourse for teams accruing wealth is to indulge in some elective inducements - which makes the game more interesting for everybody.

  12. #6352
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    I believe it was recommended for inclusion in the latest rules, but vetoed for being "too complicated." Which is sad, it's a good rule.

  13. #6353
    Lesser Hivemind Node NieA7's Avatar
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    I think the cap was 100k, which was a bit on the low side for my money. The general principle was a good one though, especially if it encouraged more use of inducements. The perpetual leagues that cyanide encourages weren't quite what the game was designed for though, and it exacerbates the cash problems elves were semi-designed to have - that things work as well as they do is pretty impressive really.

  14. #6354
    Lesser Hivemind Node cyberpunkdreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwie View Post
    I've heard that bank rule before and I like it. The only recourse for teams accruing wealth is to indulge in some elective inducements - which makes the game more interesting for everybody.
    I'd love to have a league where every team was given, say, 300k before every match which they had to spend on inducements (the remainder being taken away after the match).
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  15. #6355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janek View Post
    Also dwarf blockers are miserable and boring, which doesn't help - would be in favour of swapping block for another thematically-appropriate starting skill (stand firm? dauntless?) which should increase diversity in builds a little, rather than entire teams of MB/Guard.
    Stand firm would be interesting. It would also work well with the whole dwarves being a more slow paced team that relies on good positioning and formations.

  16. #6356
    Lesser Hivemind Node 20phoenix's Avatar
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    Was checking on the state of my team and just discovered Global Warping have completed a hat trick of DoD titles - a result which I believe makes skaven the third most successful race in the DoD behind Lizards and Orcs. Go rats!
    Global Warping (Skaven) - RPS Divisions of Death Champions Seasons 34-36

  17. #6357
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus President Weasel's Avatar
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    Whaaaat? Better than chaos? It cannot be!

  18. #6358
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    Screwie, my Delves seem to be the opposite....having gone through the tiers how i did, i've recieved inducements in all but 2 of my my 14 games so far - including getting at least a babe vs. everblue's UW. MY only two non-inducement games were my second game, where i played some rookie Chorfs and we were both even-up, and my most recent game against Brain's necro, where i would have gotten inducements but for the fact i bought new players and he played Grinn his previous game (at the cost of about 300 or so TV).

    i've played most of my Delf games with loners (including making some crucial plays with them against EB...what non-elf race has loners where you can dodge into a TZ, pick up in a TZ, dodge out, and make a short pass with a hope of success?) and i'm loving them....they do their job spectacularly...an AV8 punching bag that can dodge out over 80% of the time successfully? YES! you really need to just treat them like the disposable fodder they are...if one of them trips and dies on the 2+ dodge out, oh well! the key is not making those uninsured 2+ rolls until the end of the turn, or unless you have no other choice.

    personally i love the fact that the elves are so hard to pin down. It seems very few people in this league take the actual elf-beating skills when given the chance most of the time (those being diving tackle and tentacles)....sure you can kill my elves, but when the loners can still make plays with the ball on par with your 220 TV beastman, i'm still going to come out ahead...

    (by the way, i feel i should add a disclaimer that after the last game where both of my 1-game old witch elf rookies were retired side by side in the same game, i was seriously considering rerolling for a moment....i've come to my senses, since an AG5 leaping assassin, an AG5 blitzer, an AG5 blodge-guard blitzer, and a MB tackle killer blitzer still exist on the team to form the heart of it....but when i do reroll, you will all fear my 'flings!)
    http://bbtactics.com/forums/limdoods...-wisdom-t3292/ - My collection of articles on various tactical and strategic concepts in Blood Bowl. Enjoy!

  19. #6359
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    from the teams i've used in this game as well, i've never, EVER had even close to as good a record with any other race than i have with dark elves. It took 17 games between two league before i was handed my first loss using dark elves, and the dice were really rotten that game.

    The other teams i actually have the most experience with are zons and norse. I loves me my norse teams, and the play is fun and dynamic, but i've never been able to pull off anything like the insane, beautiful plays that elves pull off on a regular basis....my last game had several "nothing to lose" moments where i decided to just go ahead and dodge my unskilled blitzer through 2 TZs, 1 TZ, and free (thats 4+, 3+, 2+ for you slowpokes cursed with AG3)....it actually worked, which surprised me, but the point was that most coaches wouldn't even CONSIDER doing that with norse...they'd blitz one of the markers, hope for a takedown on the 1d (or risk the 3+ dodge if it didn't) and settle for marking the ballcarrier rather than blitzing. I and able to make coaches fight to stay in the game far better with elves than i ever did with my norse (and i had some GOOOOD norse...2 blodge/SS/DT runners, a super killer, a block/MB/Guard/PO yhetee, and developed Ulfs).

    Amazons suffer if your opponent knows the secret to beating them (hint: its rolling POWs on blocks) or has a few tackle/MB players, which most any race can get on their blitzers by level 3. They make SPECTACULAR foulers (in my opinion, only second to Chorf hobgoblins, and slightly ahead of norse linos), but their numbers can tend to be even swingier on the pitch than elves, since nothing cancels out AG4, but there is a (fairly common) skill that renders amazon's chief trait useless.

    I just reset my bank on the Delves (i saved up a bunch, up to 290k while riding with loners for almost 2 full seasons) by purchasing two witch elves, who both took career ending injuries in their second game ever and am back to 10 players again and bank enough to buy maybe 1 (which i won't, since Grinn is next for me) and i'm getting ready to save up again to see if i can build my bench up again...its pretty easy with elves simply since their loners ARE so useful. less players rostered is less players that get that apothecary decision and thus less likely to lose someone useful
    http://bbtactics.com/forums/limdoods...-wisdom-t3292/ - My collection of articles on various tactical and strategic concepts in Blood Bowl. Enjoy!

  20. #6360
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Screwie's Avatar
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    Ahhh the highs of a Dark Elf team on the rise... yeah there's nothing else that compares :)

    Congrats on the AG5 leaping assassin! I've had four assassins but mine have never been nearly as lucky nor lived long enough. I will make sure to take a peak at your roster sometime.

    My team is definitely, clearly, on the downswing, but I am still too attached to a few players to retire them just yet. I'm happy I took the crown for a couple of seasons at least.

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