Well, me and 20phoenix played last night and it was a typical Skaveny game for 20. My humans, albeit with a good amount of tackle and mighty blow, didn't cause enough havoc in their first 6 turn scoring drive to lower the number of gutter runners on the pitch for the rest of the game (even after 3 turns of repeated 4-man fouling of his ag5 monster). I scored turn 6, 20 got one back turn 8 after I try to make life difficult but his gutter runner simply dodges free.
I kick off second half, having only injured one skaven :-(. I get a bit of bashing going, and lower the number of skaven on the pitch, finally hitting the ball carrier and spilling the ball into a cage of 5 of my players. 20 has 5 players off KOd and 2 injuries now. But... 20 knocks me back onto the ball, which spills fre-er (still in a cage of my players). His ag5 runner picks the ball up, makes 5 dodges and sprints off. I bring him down next turn, but another gutter runner makes 2 dodges and the pickup to score. Urgh. 4 out his 5 KOd players get back up. URGH Urgh.
My final drive, 2 turns left, I throw 4 catchers down one wing, bash a bit, the kick goes deep so i go to pick up. Of course, i fumble the pickup, causing problems. Next turn, i get the ball into the hands of a catcher in my half (a blizzard is cutting my usual long bomb strategy badly!), but he gets caught by 20, KO'd AND the ball ends up in the hands of his thrower. He does a good job of defending that position and I just can't get the ball free thanks to some annoying pushes. I try to trap the thrower in, but another good series of blocks and the thrower dodges free to run in a third. Adds insult to injury, really :-(.
So, skaven, eh? Bastards, arent they? Basically, every attack 20 had went his way despite my best efforts to interfere whilst he had the ball, and my guys again didn't cause enough damage to a frail team, even with tackle and mighty blow around the place (and that repeated stamping on that gutter runner - how did he not get an injury!!). I continue to have a better injury record against chaos than elves or skaven which is decidedly weird. Couple of levels means I now have one block tackle mighty blow guard blitzer with shadowing, who might be annoying, and my (new) ogre has guard. Zod's back for the next game (I was down about 300TV for this one) so hopefully he'll be in fine bashy form for the Dark Elves.
Maybe you bash better against chaos because they let you bash them, but the other teams dodge away.
There is that, yes, and 20 did a good job of keeping his players back where possible. But I really did smash into his gutter runners on many opportunities, but to no avail. I've played far more bashy teams than agile ones, so that's naturally swaying the stats a bit, but it's still a bit weird that AV7 resists my mighty blow tackle specialists more than AV9 players with block do.
Last edited by groovychainsaw; 21-12-2012 at 10:23 AM.
I actually find my chaos take more casualties than my elfs, I think largely because their armour isn't actually that good (AV8 on beastmen, some elfs have that) and as Gorm says, my elfs typically spend a lot less time in contact with the enemy, whereas my chaos tend to wade in to the brawl.
Well, some of this is sour grapes, to be sure :-). I just wish I had a more reliable way of dealing with AG5 gutter runners than relying on causing injuries. More diving tackle, i guess?
Honestly, I find diving tackle's not that big of a deal against AG5 - it means you're dodging like a pathetic puny human, true, but that's still only a 1/9 chance of failure (with dodge or reroll) so it's not that reliable. Although most of my AG5 guys have leap too, so I usually just take the 2+ leap if DT's involved, which may be colouring my views... Tentacles is much more annoying, and even works against leap; not much help for you, though!
I agree. I can't think of anything that works better than 'punch them in the face' but when that fails you, it's difficult. I always get frustrated against Agi teams because good positioning, tackle etc. can only do so much. I think shadowing might help. Less so against an MA10 gutter runner, but against MA6 players, at least my MA7 tackle blitzer might be a pain. But yeah, as wrapped up as I got those skaven yesterday, they just kept breaking free. It's frustrating when you realise you are going to lose no matter where you place your players.
With hindsight, I should have got EVEN MORE BASHY, and stamped on every skaven and bullied the line horrendously whilst letting the gutter runners have an easy run in rather than trying to box them in - it would have at least left me with more time to score in return.
When playing against teams with an unstoppable offence I find the only way to reliably keep them out is to only run the ball (no passing) and only ever score on turn 8. I always choose to kick if I can, let them do their dodgy 2-turn score and then go for a 2-1 grind or a 1-1 draw. I do it as every race – even elves. As ‘hands says – even diving tackle is of limited use.
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Most skaven games come down to luck with injuries (and KO recoveries), especially early in the game where momentum can develop. As to what you could do differently - roll different dice on the first three or four turns and you'd have won handily.
Yeah, it can all come down to Nuffle - get in there, hit as many as you can to bring the numbers down, and put tackle zones on as many as you can, with the aim of making them roll as many dice as possible, but then you're just left to hope they fail a dodge / pass / whatever. As an elf player, when the dice are with you you feel unstoppable, but if you get a few bad rolls you can end up totally falling apart and achieving nothing.
Well, at least I'm getting confirmation that I did everything right, it just didn't work out for me :-). I didn't get the choice to kick, I received, held on for 6 turns (no passes after my catcher caught the kickoff), only injured one skaven, probably should have held out for turn 8, but those gutter runners have a way of diving into cages and taking you out when you least expect it (maybe i was timid?). From there, a 2 turn for 20 before half time, and follow up after half time (I nearly got the ball from that one as I started to take out players, but then that 5 dodge GR scenario rescued it for 20).
My final attempt to get the draw failed mostly due to the blizzard, to be honest, and the deep kick making it hard to move the ball far enough upfield in 2 turns without needing to take a bit of a chance. Even then, I was in with a chance until his thrower dodged away at the end.
Next up, show those dark elves how bashy I can be, otherwise I'll be out of this tier by Christmas!
Cyber I've just rolled your division so you are good to go this afternoon.
Groovy the only other thing you may be missing is the value of targeting the most vulnerable players first. A lot of coaches seem to miss the value of targeting the skilless niggled linerat but he is easy to get rid of and the snowball is the best way to beat finesse teams. Every injury roll helps.
The key to getting rid of gunners is thinning the linerats first so you have the numbers to get three dice when hitting gunners and always force them to dodge through traffic or have to risk leaping which exerts more reroll pressure. You still need the buggers to fail a roll though :)
I'm going to assume you were calling me ruggedly awesome there. Probably not, but I'm going to assume it anyway!
Division B, Round 2 in this chronologically confused Christmas season of Death
Red Skull Reavers (Chaos Mans, President Weasel) 1 - 0 Blue Moonz (Orcs, Dentharial)
I was short two of my best players going in, including my +str +mov chaos warrior 'Professor Brian Cox', and the teams lined up at 1720 and 1710 TV respectively. Dentharial had an edge in strength and an extra player; I had an edge in ridiculous agility elfbeasts with extra arms.
Dentharial commited his team down the sides at the start of my drive, so I tried a (metaphorical) curveball, handing off to a chaos warrior on my line and heading him up the pitch, leaving the black orcs behind and out of the action. Unfortunately I couldn't cover the blitzers, and with one successful dodge to get an extra assist Dentharial got a two dice hit and knocked over the ball carrier (shame - he was one of my two just-short-of-level-4 chaos warriors with Block and Mighty Blow so I wanted to get a TD with him to level him, give him claw, and make him into a mummy re-killer before facing the Khemri)
Imagine the next 13 turns as one of those cartoon dust clouds with skulls and lightning bolts and the occasional arm and leg sticking out, and occasionally someone gets thrown out of it and rolls their sleeves up and jumps back in.
Eventually, around turn 14, I managed to get a solid hit on Dentharial's ball carrier. The ball bounced to the edge of the melee, I cleared the tackle zone from it, picked it up with the elfbeast who was helpfully standing next to it, and ran for the line.
I didn't take a GFI to get entirely out of range, since Nuffle loves to mess with me. Instead I left him just in reach - if Dentharial made 2 GFIs to get an assist and another 2 GFIs to get a two dice block. I figured, let Nuffle screw with him instead.
Dentharial made most of the GFIs but used his last reroll to get into tackling range - and then Nuffle took a hand and he rolled a nasty result on the block dice. I think it was double skulls - whatever it was left my ball carrier standing, and next turn I took him to safety, followed by running in the TD in turn 16.
It's not a victory for the ages, or one they'll tell the little beast-kids about at the Chaos Retirement Pit for Superannuated Blood Bowl Mans; the match turned very much on the dice rolls - but it's 3 points just the same, and I'll happily take them.
Oh, and instead of having two Block/MB chaos warriors on 28 and 29 SPP waiting for claw, I now have... two Block/MB chaos warriors on 29 and 30 SPP waiting for claw. Sigh.
It's cool to note that despite the bashy nature of the teams, I think the defining players of the match were the +agility, extra arms beastmen.
As long as I could keep them contained and away from the ball, then I was in control of the match and slowly edging forward (and I in fact made a desperate run for a touchdown towards the end of the 1st half, which came fairly close to succeeding). As long as President Weasel was able to keep them threatening the ball, then I was in danger and struggling to knock down chaos mans.
And, in the end, it was one of those threatening moments when suddenly they grabbed the ball and zipped away down the pitch.
It was a good game, that could have sharply gone either way if our mighty blow or claw had decided to start affecting injuries, but as it was it was a pretty slow slugfesty grind.
On the plus side, the MVP did fall on my troll, that brings him up to level 2 and secures a tasty Guard for my LoS.
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Splinters Rejects 3 - 1 Black Bombers
In the fight of goblins vs a bit of goblins nuffle saw fit to favour me, letting cyber fail most of his second half dodges and giving a considerable numbers advantage to the rejects, bomber dribble proved fairly useless if fun (a troll caught two bombs and manged to throw one about 7 squares which was caught by my thrower, fun times!), if a kindly admin could admin as I have three tasty levels.
Smart folks, first level on the troll, on a normal role I am leaning towards either claw or tentacles, skaven next so perhaps tentacles would be the better one?
tentacle troll has to do fewer things to be effective - just move next to a gutter runner and then do nothing. Fewer chances to screw up an idiot roll.