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  1. #61
    Network Hub GraveyardJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Yes, it is. Ask the guy whose back goes out at 35 from heavy lifting if he didn't just base his career on selling his body.
    Not all labour is back-breaking work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    It's labor, and labor is the act of doing something you don't want necessarily to do for money. .
    Labour is a productive act. How would you have a world without any labour at all? Even anarchists and socialists see labour as a positive force. I disagree with your definition of labour.

  2. #62
    Network Hub GraveyardJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobsLawnService View Post
    Sexual slavery is different from sex trafficking. The definition of sex trafficking is travel across international border for the purposes of the sex trade and not sexual slavery. Don't let facts get in the way of your agenda though.
    Human trafficking is the illegal trade in human beings for the purposes of reproductive slavery, commercial sexual exploitation, froced labour, or a modern-day form of slavery.

    From wikipedia.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/2783655.stm

    United Nations official has described the trafficking of women and children across Asia as "the largest slave trade in history".

    Also my "agenda"? Its called an opinion.

    Also, with regards to this:
    "in Asia and the Pacific alone, more than 30 million children have been traded over the last three decades." I'd suggest that dwarfs the number of high class escorts empowering themselves in the rosy world of prostitution that you seem to be painting.
    Last edited by GraveyardJimmy; 01-08-2011 at 05:27 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    Human trafficking is the illegal trade in human beings for the purposes of reproductive slavery, commercial sexual exploitation, froced labour, or a modern-day form of slavery.

    From wikipedia.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/2783655.stm

    United Nations official has described the trafficking of women and children across Asia as "the largest slave trade in history".

    Also my "agenda"? Its called an opinion.

    Also, with regards to this:
    "in Asia and the Pacific alone, more than 30 million children have been traded over the last three decades." I'd suggest that dwarfs the number of high class escorts empowering themselves in the rosy world of prostitution that you seem to be painting.
    Yeah, I edited my post a few minutes after posting it after realising I was wrong on that point. I still don't think that human trafficking is representative of the whole sex trade or even the majority and I certainly don't think the patriarchal attitude of denying women the right to sell their bodies is the way to go. I really despise the notion that women are in some way dirty for selling their bodies. I also give women much more credit for having control over their own destinies than you do by the sounds of it.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    Human trafficking is the illegal trade in human beings for the purposes of reproductive slavery, commercial sexual exploitation, froced labour, or a modern-day form of slavery.

    From wikipedia.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/2783655.stm

    United Nations official has described the trafficking of women and children across Asia as "the largest slave trade in history".

    Also my "agenda"? Its called an opinion.

    Also, with regards to this:
    "in Asia and the Pacific alone, more than 30 million children have been traded over the last three decades." I'd suggest that dwarfs the number of high class escorts empowering themselves in the rosy world of prostitution that you seem to be painting.
    Yeah, I edited my post a few minutes after posting it after realising I was wrong on that point. I still don't think that human trafficking is representative of the whole sex trade or even the majority and I certainly don't think the patriarchal attitude of denying women the right to sell their bodies is the way to go. I really despise the notion that women are in some way dirty for selling their bodies. I also give women much more credit for having control over their own destinies than you do by the sounds of it.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    "in Asia and the Pacific alone, more than 30 million children have been traded over the last three decades." I'd suggest that dwarfs the number of high class escorts empowering themselves in the rosy world of prostitution that you seem to be painting.
    Nobody here is painting a rosy picture of prostitution. It is my understanding that Nalano is asserting - and I would agree - that prostitution is not intrinsically more problematic than any other form of labour. The reality is rather different, of course, but then the single largest reason for that is because prostitution is kept underground, free from regulatory oversight. It is the combination of puritanism and hypocrisy which has given rise to the appalling conditions faced by so many women today; society has created the victims which it professes it wishes to save.
    Last edited by Rii; 01-08-2011 at 05:51 PM.

  6. #66
    Network Hub GraveyardJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobsLawnService View Post
    Yeah, I edited my post a few minutes after posting it after realising I was wrong on that point. I still don't think that human trafficking is representative of the whole sex trade or even the majority and I certainly don't think the patriarchal attitude of denying women the right to sell their bodies is the way to go. I really despise the notion that women are in some way dirty for selling their bodies. I also give women much more credit for having control over their own destinies than you do by the sounds of it.
    My point is that prostitution as a whole is not generally women selling their bodies, but women being sold or coerced into slavery. 30 million children in asia and pacific. Now add up the rest of the world, those dependant on drugs and victims of violence and I highly doubt that the numbers of women who are freely entering prostitution is the majority.

    If it is not, then we should see that the experience of the majority of prostitutes is not their free will, so we should not by default think of prostitutes in the sense of a woman having sexual empowerment, but instead it is the contrary, since so many people are forced into sexual slavery.

    Also, I disagree that I am denying women the right to sell their bodies. I am highlighting the underside of the sex trade. I dont think I have actually said that prostitution, if with full consent and in conditions that actually do empower women (since so many conditions dont) should be disallowed. To the contrary, I think that the prohibition by governments of many things actually contributes to criminal activity and problems in society, much as you see an illegal black market rise up out of prohibition of many illegal drugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    -snip-
    I think as you will see in this post, I am probably closer to agreeing with you than you would imagine. The sex trade rises up out of prohibition, forcing it underground and thus makes it impossible to safeguard working conditions.
    Last edited by GraveyardJimmy; 01-08-2011 at 05:53 PM.

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    It is the combination of puritanism and hypocrisy which has given rise to the appalling conditions faced by so many women today; society has created the victims which it professes it wishes to save.
    This.

    Besides, labor is not defined by the creation of a product. A product may emerge as the result of labor, but labor itself is defined by renting one's person to somebody else for monetary remittance. Whether that time is spent conversing, digging and filling ditches, swapping derivatives or on one's back makes no difference: It's all labor.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Vexing Vision's Avatar
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    Can we get back to the hot virtual manga girls? Rawr.

    The main issue I'd have with these is not the money spent for a romantic cyber-weekend with an AI, but the tamagotchi-like qualities that would enforce certain behaviour. If a co-worker would go home early because his virtual girlfriend complains that he is working too long, I would find that much, much more bothering than if he enjoys himself on a fancy weekend escapade of whatever his fetish is.
    My games-related Twitter: VexingVision

    Currently playing: Hearthstone; Blood Bowl; Wizardry 8; Dominions 4
    Currently waiting for: Wildstar; Darkest Dungeon

  9. #69
    Network Hub GraveyardJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    This.

    Besides, labor is not defined by the creation of a product. A product may emerge as the result of labor, but labor itself is defined by renting one's person to somebody else for monetary remittance. Whether that time is spent conversing, digging and filling ditches, swapping derivatives or on one's back makes no difference: It's all labor.
    I think you are still going to have to define labour differently. I agree that it may not produce something but it does not have to be linked to the idea of money. You do labour for your own benefit, people work for free, voluntary work. These are all some forms of labour.

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexing Vision View Post
    Can we get back to the hot virtual manga girls? Rawr.

    The main issue I'd have with these is not the money spent for a romantic cyber-weekend with an AI, but the tamagotchi-like qualities that would enforce certain behaviour. If a co-worker would go home early because his virtual girlfriend complains that he is working too long, I would find that much, much more bothering than if he enjoys himself on a fancy weekend escapade of whatever his fetish is.
    I think it's just a subtrope of the antisocial nature of social networking. The internet is atomizing society - and of course in Japan we have some real social recluses - and as such the OP is just relating one egregious example of completely withdrawing from an actual social life.

    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    I think you are still going to have to define labour differently. I agree that it may not produce something but it does not have to be linked to the idea of money. You do labour for your own benefit, people work for free, voluntary work. These are all some forms of labour.
    "I voluntarily choose not to starve:" That's not free.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  11. #71
    Network Hub GraveyardJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    "I voluntarily choose not to starve:" That's not free.
    That doesn't answer my point. I am not talking about whether the choice to work is really a choice and whether we have autonomy over the labour we do ( I beleive that we do not have agency over a choice to work, as the choice of to work or to starve is no real choice, therefore we do not actually have real agency over this decision), I am saying that your definition of labour as linked to money is wrong.

    Voluntary work is labour. You dont get paid. Therefore labour is not "renting one's person to somebody else for monetary remittance". When I work at home, or for pleasure it is labour. I get reward, but it is not money.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    Ok, not in cases with full consent, but the majority of cases involve significant involvement of other people and coersion, be it trafficking, drugs, pimps, etc
    Meanwhile millions of people drag themselves to dead-end cubicle jobs purely because they feel like it, and not because of things like rent, taxes and bills need paying. People can live without drugs, can't say the same about food.

  13. #73
    Network Hub GraveyardJimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    Meanwhile millions of people drag themselves to dead-end cubicle jobs purely because they feel like it, and not because of things like rent, taxes and bills need paying. People can live without drugs, can't say the same about food.
    Drugs are physically addictive, there is a physical dependency there (often without rehab, people cant just "live without drugs", theres a reason 90% of people in jail are addicted to drugs/addicted to alcohol/have at least 2 mental problems- source Flat Earth News, Nick Davies). However, as I already said, "the choice of to work or to starve is no real choice, therefore we do not actually have real agency over this decision".
    Last edited by GraveyardJimmy; 01-08-2011 at 06:54 PM.

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    When I work at home, or for pleasure it is labour. I get reward, but it is not money.
    You're mincing the point and being needlessly and pointlessly obtuse, especially since you've clearly ascertained the point: Work is what I do to get paid. I don't want to do it. I want to get paid. I have to get paid to live, because I like living indoors, so therefore some portion of my waking life will be spent at work. What I do at work is besides the point, except for the fact that I've set aside a portion of my life doing it.

    Can we get back to wacky otaku and their e-girlfriends?
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  15. #75
    Network Hub Donjo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    The particular brand of puritanism which emerges in feminist circles on the subject of prostitution is rather disquieting and, of course, not at all beneficial to the women whose welfare they are ostensibly concerned for. It's much like the Catholic Church approach to combating AIDS.
    I know some feminists who engage with sex workers, not to tell
    them that they're wrong but to try to help, mostly by providing
    information on stuff like clinics, free condoms, the sex workers alliance and the law.
    Just saying, not all feminists are puritans...

    Well this has gone fairly off topic... still though, I'd be hard pressed to find another computer game blog
    with this level of discussion in the forums... I'd agree with the sex as labour interpretation that Nalano
    is presenting, it's possible to regulate it so that people aren't exploited so much. The first question and
    answer on the Irish Sex Workers Alliance website is
    Q. Why do you use the term sex worker rather than prostitute?
    A. The term sex worker is used because when sex workers are asked
    about their activity they describe what they do as ‘work’ or ‘working’.
    http://www.sexworkersallianceireland.org/faq
    Last edited by Donjo; 01-08-2011 at 10:13 PM.

  16. #76
    Network Hub Donjo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy View Post
    My point is that prostitution as a whole is not generally women selling their bodies, but women being sold or coerced into slavery. 30 million children in asia and pacific. Now add up the rest of the world, those dependant on drugs and victims of violence and I highly doubt that the numbers of women who are freely entering prostitution is the majority.

    If it is not, then we should see that the experience of the majority of prostitutes is not their free will, so we should not by default think of prostitutes in the sense of a woman having sexual empowerment, but instead it is the contrary, since so many people are forced into sexual slavery.

    Also, I disagree that I am denying women the right to sell their bodies. I am highlighting the underside of the sex trade. I dont think I have actually said that prostitution, if with full consent and in conditions that actually do empower women (since so many conditions dont) should be disallowed. To the contrary, I think that the prohibition by governments of many things actually contributes to criminal activity and problems in society, much as you see an illegal black market rise up out of prohibition of many illegal drugs.

    I think as you will see in this post, I am probably closer to agreeing with you than you would imagine. The sex trade rises up out of prohibition, forcing it underground and thus makes it impossible to safeguard working conditions.
    I was going to say earlier but you've made the point here- if sex workers
    were taxed and regulated if would be far more difficult for the black market to exist.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Donjonson View Post
    I know some feminists who engage with sex workers, not to tell
    them that their wrong but to try to help them, mostly by providing
    information on stuff like clinics, free condoms, the sex workers alliance and the law.
    Just saying, not all feminists are puritans...

    Well this has gone fairly off topic... still though, I'd be hard pressed to find another computer game blog
    with this level of discussion in the forums... I'd agree with the sex as labour interpretation that Nalano
    is presenting, it's possible to regulate it so that people aren't exploited so much. The first question and
    answer on the Irish Sex Workers Alliance website is
    Q. Why do you use the term sex worker rather than prostitute?
    A. The term sex worker is used because when sex workers are asked
    about their activity they describe what they do as ‘work’ or ‘working’.
    http://www.sexworkersallianceireland.org/faq
    From the FAQ. I'd consider that site to be something of an authority on the subject so it is nice to read a balanced view on the topic by the people involved in the industry :

    Q. Do sex workers choose their line of work?
    Not all sex workers are the same; some enjoy this line of work while others would prefer to do something else, although may have limited options when it comes to earning an income. Many sex workers work part time, attracted by the flexible working hours and the autonomy and freedom it offers them. Others report that they like being their own boss.

    Q. Are all foreign sex workers in Ireland trafficked into the sex industry?
    Human trafficking is the practice of deceiving, coercing or otherwise removing people from their home or their countries and forcing them to work for little or no compensation in situations of exploitation. Trafficking is not synonymous with sex work and victims of human trafficking may be forced to work in industries such as agriculture, domestic service as well as the sex industry. It is critical to distinguish human trafficking, which is a violation of human rights, from voluntary migration.
    A distinction also needs to be made between migrant workers who voluntarily sell sex and those who are victims of international trafficking criminal gangs who force people to work as sex workers. It has also been reported that migrant sex workers may pay an agency to bring them into another country or they may have networks of friends and family who facilitate their move from one country to another.
    SWAI does not support human trafficking in any form. We suggest that more effort and resources be deployed to pursue these international criminal gangs, rather than wasting valuable and finite resources by targeting consenting adults who voluntarily engage in commercial sexual activity.
    Last edited by Wooly Wugga Wugga; 01-08-2011 at 08:48 PM.
    "You go up to a man, and you say, "How are things going, Joe?" and he says, "Oh fine, fine — couldn't be better." And you look into his eyes, and you see things really couldn't be much worse. When you get right down to it, everybody's having a perfectly lousy time of it, and I mean everybody. And the hell of it is, nothing seems to help much." - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

  18. #78
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjonson View Post
    I was going to say earlier but you've made the point here- if sex workers
    were taxed and regulated if would be far more difficult for the black market to exist.
    Prostitution is quite legal in Germany, but as I mentioned, it certainly hasn't eliminated the human trafficking element. I've no doubt general conditions are better than in countries where it's illegal, though.

  19. #79
    Network Hub Donjo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooly Wugga Wugga View Post
    From the FAQ. I'd consider that site to be something of an authority on the subject so it is nice to read a balanced view on the topic by the people involved in the industry :
    ]
    Yeah, here's another bit-
    Q. Are sex workers victims of violence?
    Sadly in some instances they are victims of violence, those who work on the street are most vulnerable and this is true for both female and male sex workers. Studies show that there is less likelihood of violence from regular customers. Due to stigma and fear of prosecution, sex workers are often reluctant to report incidences of violence to the Gardai.

    It is also worth remembering that people who are violent towards sex workers are not always clients but are criminals engaging in violent assaults specifically targeting sex workers. In Liverpool crimes against sex workers are defined as hate crimes.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    Prostitution is quite legal in Germany, but as I mentioned, it certainly hasn't eliminated the human trafficking element. I've no doubt general conditions are better than in countries where it's illegal, though.
    You have to remember that legalising prostitution in licensed brothels makes purchasing sex a convenient thing instead of doing the back alley stuff. It benefits the people buying sex (licensed prostitutes requiring regular STD check ups etc), the prostitutes themselves (less chance of a violent or aggressive man due to them having, y'know, actual rights as workers) AND the government (hi taxation, hi not having to spend as much money, hi everything else).

    It also means people will not purchase sex on the street as much (therefore LOWERING the rate of human trafficking as not as much profit can be made) because they can just go to a brothel instead.

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