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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Of course DRM is 'justified' as anti-pirate. Otherwise it's just a "fuck you" to legitimate consumers, pirates being the only ones unaffected by DRM. It's still intrusive and wrong. It was unwanted in Ubisoft games, and it's unwanted in Blizzard games.

    The 'justification' for the always-on DRM is that Diablo 3 is a multiplayer game and Diablo 2 was plagued by hacks. The 'justification' for no mods is that Diablo 3 is a multiplayer game and Diablo 2 was plagued by hacks. Either way, guess who loses? The majority who play only single player, and the modding community - PC gamers, all.
    Ubi's DRM was demonstratively pointless though. Because it was cracked pretty swiftly.

    See, I don't like being inconvenienced as a consumer, for obvious reasons.

    But if you're Ubisoft, and you tell me you're inconveniencing me to stop other people getting the game I paid for for free, but then those people still get to play the game anyway then I'm really annoyed. Because I'm being inconvenienced for measurably no reason whatsoever.

    If you're Blizzard, and you tell me you're inconveniencing me to stop other people getting the game I paid for for free, and that works, and the only people playing the game are legit purchasers then I'm annoyed, but I see why you did it. I get it, and it's not a trade-off I'd willingly make but it's one I can live with.

    The difference between those two, for me, is huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Item shops are a P2W model. Screw that.
    But it's not a competitive game? If people want to pay to win a game where they're not competing against other people then I really don't care. As long as the game isn't balanced around people buying this stuff (which it can't be as they can only buy and sell stuff that's already found in the world) then I don't mind too much.

  2. #62
    Obscure Node Hocevar's Avatar
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    I don't see any problem whatsoever with Blizzard making player-to-player sales oficial, that is going to happen no matter what. It's just like drugs, you can either make it illegal and get no taxes or make it legal and get some, the market will be there no matter what anyone does.

    But there is no justification for the no-mods and ubisoft-like DRM, that is just the Activision bullshit, damnit, at least we still have CD Projekt and indies

  3. #63
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Well I see the store as a way of profiting off something that's inevitable anyway
    "Chinese sweatshops are making money through our games. This is terrible! We should be making that money."

    Yeah, I don't think that excuse is gonna fly.

    Also, it's explicit encouragement of the practice on both sides. There will be many, many more buyers and sellers because it's officially allowed and integrated with the game. Again, I can't stress enough the badness of how this will look.

  4. #64
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    In game money transactions, ohh just wait till the US Government hears about it for taxation or security reasons. Talk about making it easy to transfer money around the world. After a few $$ gets funneled to North Korea, China, Russia, or anywhere that's a hot topic at the moment. Setting themselves up for a nightmare. I'm re-evaluating my purchase as well.

    V
    Last edited by Vladimyre; 01-08-2011 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Spelling

  5. #65
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    I'm waiting and seeing on this whole selling items thing. It could be completely valid, if there's cool content out there. I think people are justifiably uneasy about how close this feels to weird free-to-play games with two currencies, real and earned. As for the always online thing... I get it, but it's incredibly annoying and a major drawback for me personally. The beauty of an addictive game like Diablo 3 (if my high hopes prove to be right) for people who travel is that it makes those lonely nights in crappy hotels, or extended trips abroad, a lot easier. Piracy sucks, but I'm not happy Blizzard has decided to make sure I'm affected too.

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimyre View Post
    In game money transactions, ohh just wait till the US Government hears about it for taxation or security reasons. Talk about making it easy to transfer money around the world. After a few $$ gets funneled to North Korea, China, Russia, or anywhere that's a hot topic at the moment. Setting themselves up for a nightmare. I'm re-evaluating my purchase as well.

    V
    That's no worries, 'cuz apparently you can't play with friends from other countries! =)

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    If you're Blizzard, and you tell me you're inconveniencing me to stop other people getting the game I paid for for free, and that works, and the only people playing the game are legit purchasers then I'm annoyed, but I see why you did it. I get it, and it's not a trade-off I'd willingly make but it's one I can live with.

    [...]

    But it's not a competitive game? If people want to pay to win a game where they're not competing against other people then I really don't care. As long as the game isn't balanced around people buying this stuff (which it can't be as they can only buy and sell stuff that's already found in the world) then I don't mind too much.
    No DRM has gone any length of time without being cracked.

    They said it's not a tourney game - no ladder, no global stats. They didn't say it's not a competitive game.
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  8. #68
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    That sucks, I have lots of friends in the UK, Aus, and other places as well. This seems to just be getting worse and worse on the new side.

    V

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    "Chinese sweatshops are making money through our games. This is terrible! We should be making that money."

    Yeah, I don't think that excuse is gonna fly.

    Also, it's explicit encouragement of the practice on both sides. There will be many, many more buyers and sellers because it's officially allowed and integrated with the game. Again, I can't stress enough the badness of how this will look.
    Why won't it fly? Would you not rather give your money to Blizzard than a Chinese sweat-shop owner? Yes it legitimises it but there's a whole other side to that.

    The Chinese gold-farming was going to happen regardless. As long as there is the ability to trade currency and items in the game, then it was going to happen. Blizzard can, and I think still will, try and stop it (it's not hard to ban organised activities like that in the EULA while still permitting players). But by letting normal users do it too, you don't just increase the demand (my making it 'legal') you also massively increase the supply, by letting anyone sell stuff for real money. And more competition means prices will get pushed lower, possibly to the point of making gold farms unprofitable.

    The question of course is if that increase in demand will be fully offset and then some by the increase in supply. There aren't many comparators to look at for that, but generally in history when a prohibited product has been legalised, the profits for criminal organisations drop-off and they abandon it.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    No DRM has gone any length of time without being cracked.
    Not quite true. I can think of one. Little game Blizzard made before Diablo 3. What was it called again? World of... something or other. Rather than have any regular sort of DRM, you have to be logged in for the game to work, as all the creature AI and positioning and so on is stored on the server, and with that sort of architecture it's literally unplayable offline. There are some pirate servers, but they don't offer an experience on par with the real thing. And Blizzard just happen to know more about that sort of thing than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    They said it's not a tourney game - no ladder, no global stats. They didn't say it's not a competitive game.
    We'll have to see on that one. Didn't someone mention that there will be none-RMT servers available though?

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Not quite true. I can think of one. Little game Blizzard made before Diablo 3. What was it called again? World of... something or other.

    [...]

    There are some pirate servers
    Usually I have to wait for my turn to post to contradict you.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Usually I have to wait for my turn to post to contradict you.
    The point being: a) they don't really work and b) even where they are just about playable, or you can find one that has a rule-set you can deal with, they lag behind on content releases and offer an inferior product to the one you get if you pay. To the point that the vast majority opt to just pay for WoW instead. It's like me scrawling a woman's face on a napkin and saying I've pirated the Mona Lisa.

    Edit - or to quote Simon Munnery: "I do my own heckles, saves time"

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's like me scrawling a woman's face on a napkin and saying I've pirated the Mona Lisa.
    Screenshots plx

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's like me scrawling a woman's face on a napkin and saying I've pirated the Mona Lisa.
    Well, it's more like you talking apples and oranges, and then redefining the terms once you were cornered even then. Point being: No DRM has ever gone uncracked. Not even for MMOs, not that it matters because we're talking always-on DRM for a single-player game.

    (And really, how can you hurt the MMO experience any further than what it already is? They're horrible to play; more "I smoke because I get the shakes otherwise" instead of "I smoke because I enjoy the taste.")
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Well, it's more like you talking apples and oranges, and then redefining the terms once you were cornered even then. Point being: No DRM has ever gone uncracked. Not even for MMOs, not that it matters because we're talking always-on DRM for a single-player game.
    I think on the old forum we came up with like two examples of single-player DRM that had never been cracked. Plus a lot of MMOs.

    But it's where you draw the line between DRM and an online platform. We don't know how much D3 will be of one and how much of the other. It might surprise you to know that WoW can be played as a single-player game, and it's pretty good fun (I enjoyed the taste for many years). Guild Wars was pretty much built around that sort of single-player/small-group play that Diablo is meant to be bringing, but because it labelled itself as an MMO, no-one cared about the 'DRM', it was accepted. If this were a new IP, and was announced as an online game from the start, no-one would be raising an eyebrow. It's not matching what people expect though, so they're getting up in arms.

    I mean we'll have to wait and see, but if it does spin closer to the online-platform model (and let's face it, if anyone is going to do that well: Blizzard) then it's less likely to get pirated, and get pirated well, and more likely to add enough value people will mind less.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I think on the old forum we came up with like two examples of single-player DRM that had never been cracked. Plus a lot of MMOs.
    How can people solely blame pirates for DRM when clearly it affects paying customers more?

    In fact your example implies that apart from two single player games, pirates can play EVERY OTHER single player game.

    So who's the DRM for?

    Sure, MMOs tend to be a different beast, and DRM circumvention in this case usually involves either stealing someone's account or setting up private servers.

    I think a certain amount of DRM is probably required for every release, things to stop people from directly downloading it from public websites. However if people really want to play a game they'll find a way to, there's no need to make the DRM so bad it will piss off paying customers so much they will stop buying your games.
    <hints id="hah_hints"></hints>

  17. #77
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    I think the online requirement is much less about DRM and more about monetization strategy. If you're playing single-player you won't be participating in the auction house. By forcing you to be online and meander through their systems you're getting exposure to it and curiosity will take over sooner or later and have you browsing it. Forcing you through their systems will also check for third-party software which would compromise the integrity of the auction house and thereby devalue the items.

    If they had the option to play offline, single-player, or with the option to remove you from the pay-for-item structure (like EQ2); there would be a huge split in the community and the potential gains from auction house sales. It's incredibly "savvy" (greedy), but also succeeds in alienating your customer base. Having said that, Blizzard has a tendency to piss everyone off with early announcements like this and then give themselves enough time to work out contingency plans based on the reactions.

  18. #78
    I was slightly interested in this game because I had the second one for a bit but didn't really enjoy it. But with the whole "always online" thing and no mods, not to mention the real money marketplace, I'm officially no longer interested. I refuse to play with people whose sole intention is to make money instead of enjoy the 'effin game. Those attitudes are what ruined eve online for me.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Abuse. Same thing, but with the volume turned down. And more commonly used outside of sexual situations.

    So what bit are we particularly annoyed with then? The DRM, the modding or the item store?
    Abuse doesn't really work either. Since abuse implies a lack of profit on the part of the other person.

    I think most people are annoyed with all of it. For me, though? Definitely item store. I only used mods rarely and I played on Battle.net 99% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burchard View Post
    If they had the option to play offline, single-player, or with the option to remove you from the pay-for-item structure (like EQ2); there would be a huge split in the community and the potential gains from auction house sales. It's incredibly "savvy" (greedy), but also succeeds in alienating your customer base. Having said that, Blizzard has a tendency to piss everyone off with early announcements like this and then give themselves enough time to work out contingency plans based on the reactions.
    I'm fairly certain that Blizzard does "new coke"-esque crap. They make a horrible announcement that will piss off EVERYONE and then take it back like a week later in order to go, "LOOK, WE'RE GOOD TO OUR CUSTOMERS, BUY OUR STUFF WE LISTENED TO YOU." They did it with RealID etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by winterwolves View Post
    Guys, in 5 years max offline games on PC probably won't exist anymore. Blame pirates for what is happening and not the companies that aren't "greedy" but need to pay the bills.
    Except it has nothing to do with piracy (since, as has been pointed out, PIRATES ARE NOT EFFECTED BY DRM - except perhaps a few days waiting for the game to be "released"), it has to do with preventing resale of games and making sure customers are always online so you can shove "deals" in their faces.

  20. #80
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    I had a passing interest in this game, based on Blizzard's track record and the hype. I no longer have even a passing interest in the game, sadly. I really did think Blizzard was the bee's knees.

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