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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Guardian View Post
    Damn, gotta play the final chapter again, I was about to watch the entire credtis as I usually do, but gaved up and hit 'skip' somwhere around the QA credits cause I was getting hungry. Strange, as the body of Conrad on the rooftop looks like it was dead for days.
    Conrad was always dead. The game is you battling with your own demons.
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  2. #62
    Do you remember the movie Thin Red Line? When the American troops finaly storm the Japanese camp and find most of the enemies unable to fight? I got a similar vibe from the final level of Spec Ops. You storm the ridiculous sandbag fort, enter the living quarters which are strewn with personal items and Blueray movies. There is a corner with the dog-tags of the fallen and you can read the final order of Konrad, which says it was and honour to fight alongside his men and to hold out to the end. And either it was a glitch in the AI, or the few last troops on the top floor don't even attack you, they just hide behind cover and Walker has to methodically approach and kill them. At this point he has some kind of automatic grenade launcher which just jibs everybody in his way. I found this final slaughter to be really effective at driving home the point of who is the real villain.

  3. #63
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    And conveniently enough, there's the demi-god fantasy trope right there.
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  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Guardian View Post
    Do you remember the movie Thin Red Line?
    [...]
    You storm the ridiculous sandbag fort, enter the living quarters which are strewn with personal items and Blueray movies .
    [...]
    I found this final slaughter to be really effective at driving home the point of who is the real villain.
    It's Sony isn't it... Knew it.
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  5. #65
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    It's Sony isn't it... Knew it.
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  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Apologies for the radio silence since my last mega post, I’ve not had time to really formulate a proper response, but I’m also loathe to turn this into a “I’m right, you’re wrong thing” so I’m not going to engage on the points that have been written in response to my first points. Irrespective of what I do or don’t agree with everyone has raised their points with thought and eloquence which is all that counts. The main conclusion I’m drawing here is that everyone has been encouraged to engage critically with the violence and shooting in Spec Ops, and for that reason ( as I said earlier) I think it’s both an important and clever game in the main.

    I’ve percolated my disappointment with it to being around its limitations as a mere comment on your classic WARFACE shooter type games and their presentation of violence rather than violence and war itself, and my problem with that is that it’s a pretty soft and easy target to begin with. It’s an Ivory Tower implying at the need for change, rather than an example for the genre to follow, and seems to be very content that that is the case. It could and should have been braver manifesto for change I feel. However, that’s just a difference of opinion as to what it’s ambition should be ultimately. It was only an opinion I came to after playing it, which maybe suggests this was a necessary blueprint.

    It would be churlish of me to deny that it serves it’s intended purpose pretty well. And as someone who has been vocal about the conversation about violence in games needing to shift from the defensive (Videogames don’t kill people or encourage people to kill people) to more intelligent, constructive discourse (videogames not killing people does not however justify or explain the preponderance and overabundance of violence they contain) it would be remiss of me not to give it credit for attempting to be a real voice in that debate irrespective of what sort of scale it is or isn’t aspiring to. I look forward to games which make the point better and more stridently however, and which show the way forward rather than point at how backward the current tropes are without offering any suggestion or example as to how they might be bettered.

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    I’ve percolated my disappointment with it to being around its limitations as a mere comment on your classic WARFACE shooter type games and their presentation of violence rather than violence and war itself, and my problem with that is that it’s a pretty soft and easy target to begin with. It’s an Ivory Tower implying at the need for change, rather than an example for the genre to follow, and seems to be very content that that is the case. It could and should have been braver manifesto for change I feel. However, that’s just a difference of opinion as to what it’s ambition should be ultimately. It was only an opinion I came to after playing it, which maybe suggests this was a necessary blueprint.
    I don't think it is truly meant to push for wide-reaching change. Instead, it just wants you to THINK about it.

    Again, I bring up Clint Eastwood's greatest work: Unforgiven. That was a BEAUTIFUL deconstruction of the western genre that also examined things like the nature of a man and what not (and was a beautiful love story). But it was NOT meant to kill the western genre or take away people's enjoyment of those movies.

    Spec Ops is a deconstruction designed to make you think. Plain and simple.

    It would be churlish of me to deny that it serves it’s intended purpose pretty well. And as someone who has been vocal about the conversation about violence in games needing to shift from the defensive (Videogames don’t kill people or encourage people to kill people) to more intelligent, constructive discourse (videogames not killing people does not however justify or explain the preponderance and overabundance of violence they contain) it would be remiss of me not to give it credit for attempting to be a real voice in that debate irrespective of what sort of scale it is or isn’t aspiring to. I look forward to games which make the point better and more stridently however, and which show the way forward rather than point at how backward the current tropes are without offering any suggestion or example as to how they might be bettered.
    I think one big issue is that you want this to be something else. You want it to be a beacon of change and something to shake up the industry.
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  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I don't think it is truly meant to push for wide-reaching change. Instead, it just wants you to THINK about it.

    Again, I bring up Clint Eastwood's greatest work: Unforgiven. That was a BEAUTIFUL deconstruction of the western genre that also examined things like the nature of a man and what not (and was a beautiful love story). But it was NOT meant to kill the western genre or take away people's enjoyment of those movies.

    Spec Ops is a deconstruction designed to make you think. Plain and simple.


    I think one big issue is that you want this to be something else. You want it to be a beacon of change and something to shake up the industry.
    That's exactly what I said aye

  9. #69
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    You're setting your expectations too high as Gundato says. It's not supposed to be something Earth-shattering where people will suddenly give up shooters forever.

    It's just supposed to make you consider things in a different light by taking the things we're so familiar with and turning them around.

    Whether or not you liked that it did that is a personal thing. But let's not loose sight of what it actually did and did not do.
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  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    You're setting your expectations too high as Gundato says. It's not supposed to be something Earth-shattering where people will suddenly give up shooters forever.

    It's just supposed to make you consider things in a different light by taking the things we're so familiar with and turning them around.

    Whether or not you liked that it did that is a personal thing. But let's not loose sight of what it actually did and did not do.
    If you'll read what I said I basically said all of the above?

  11. #71
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    You were probably writing your reply right when I posted mine.

    For now I'd just be content knowing that there's a chance games might grow up a bit. That is until I accidentally stumble onto someone's "Pro kills montage" on YouTube. Then I realize there is no hope again.
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  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    @Sonson

    I concur that it would be great if Spec Ops was somehow leading the charge away from the dismal nature of the MW style FPS, however I think one has to view these things as a case of evolution rather then revolution. A far more common currency as to how change occurs generally. Yager have shone a spotlight onto the the subject and shown it in stark relief, and it's become a talking point for people. It's enough that it's started a conversation about the nature of the FPS. I can't help but feel that perhaps that conversation may have informed the critical assessment of Farcry 3 for instance in terms of people questioning the whole 'mighty whitey' angle for instance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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  13. #73
    Obscure Node universe's Avatar
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    Spec Ops is a bloody game :P

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by universe View Post
    Spec Ops is a bloody game :P
    Oh dear. Should we tell them?
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  15. #75
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    A little late to the conversation, but I beat this game today and I didn't have much of a reaction to it. I don't find it shocking that "I" incinerated civilians because the game has already trivialized violence by that point. Yeah, bombing people with WP is pretty nasty, but what about the 300 guys I killed leading up to that? The characters were blasť about it so to me the game was nonsense, just like CoD. 10 minutes into that game you're the god damn terminator so the character development during the game becomes ridiculous. The gameplay of the last hour supports Walker being a complete psycho (killing 10 guys a minute non-stop), the problem is that the game plays the exact same way from the start. I guess if those first few hours of the game made you feel like a badass then the bombing scene might be impactful, but I can't relate to that at all.
    Last edited by kyrieee; 16-01-2013 at 03:09 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    For now I'd just be content knowing that there's a chance games might grow up a bit. That is until I accidentally stumble onto someone's "Pro kills montage" on YouTube. Then I realize there is no hope again.
    No matter how many Citizen Kanes, there will always be Jacks & Jills.

  17. #77
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    The game class of does provide you that choice, if you are ready to end the game at that position.I feel that there were extra positions in the game where thanks in big part to Lugo stick his nose in - the game was offering me a somewhat-honest choice between stopping or ongoing. As much as the game is lauded for its story. In my point of view story is not very attractive.
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    Last edited by Ezra; 19-01-2013 at 09:05 AM.

  18. #78
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    The characters were blasť about it so to me the game was nonsense, just like CoD. 10 minutes into that game you're the god damn terminator so the character development during the game becomes ridiculous.
    What? These guys are professional soldiers. They are used to killing people. They were teached how to kill people. So they are doing it.
    But even pros can be broken after burning to death about hundred soldiers and civilians which they wanted to rescue.

  19. #79
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    No matter how many Citizen Kanes, there will always be Jacks & Jills.
    You bastard. Why would you remind me of that wretched thing? Whhhhhhhy?!
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyrieee View Post
    A little late to the conversation, but I beat this game today and I didn't have much of a reaction to it. I don't find it shocking that "I" incinerated civilians because the game has already trivialized violence by that point. Yeah, bombing people with WP is pretty nasty, but what about the 300 guys I killed leading up to that? The characters were blasť about it so to me the game was nonsense, just like CoD. 10 minutes into that game you're the god damn terminator so the character development during the game becomes ridiculous. The gameplay of the last hour supports Walker being a complete psycho (killing 10 guys a minute non-stop), the problem is that the game plays the exact same way from the start. I guess if those first few hours of the game made you feel like a badass then the bombing scene might be impactful, but I can't relate to that at all.
    I had a similar reaction and I sincerely worry for people that felt guilt at that point. That much empathy for basic avatars is unhealthy imo. What I mean is, if you have a feeling there, you must be seeing these avatars as people or at least depictions of them, like you would the main characters of a good movie for instance. But that means you also have this feeling in COD or whatever, you almost have to right? But in that case, you are constantly slaughtering actual people for your own enjoyment without remorse, just because they were the bad guys...

    I wrote it somewhere as a reaction on the main site already, this has made me rethink my stance on violence in gaming. If people actually feel 'punched in the gut', I think violence in games might be an actual problem.

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