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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Discussion: the state of the game

    This guy here has quite a lot to say on the state of the game:
    http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...ee-them.73820/

    Do you agree?

    (I'd like for this not to devolve into a whinefest, because there are enough of those on the public PS2 forums anyway, but some nuanced discussion and constructive critique would be fun.)

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Yeah, I pretty much totally agree on all points.. Read the whole thing. I still think PS2 is an excellent game, but he pinpoints everything that will make or break PS2 in the long term - ghostcapping and cert/KDR-stuff especially.

    Just his proposed ghostcapping solution would probably fix the current biggest problem with the game.

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    I like the KDR point, because it indeed reinforces playing behaviours that are dissonant with what this game aims to become.

    As for the rest, I don't know. I feel really fortunate playing with you, guys, because I haven't experienced or at least had my game ruined by what that very vocal group of whiners keep whining about. The "Giraffe of Awesome" thread lists many of the reasons why I enjoy playing this game.

    On a side note, I've never played an MMO before, and this is the first FPS I've played in over a decade, besides Borderlands 1/2 (which are a lot more forgiving). I tried to dabble in BF3 (only because it came with my graphics card), but it just didn't make sense to me. And I couldn't stand the militaristic jingoism.

    So, with those credentials (or lack thereof), I think that PS2 is all about emergent gameplay. And, something that a lot of those threads miss, because most are started by lone wolfs (without even the accompanying cub), is that half the gameplay lies in the coms. Either the urgent cry "Sundy to the left" or "Inf coming over the ridge to the NW of the point", or Oak for example just taking the piss (fully certed at that) , it is a core element that is often overlooked.

    tl;dr: Oak is OP!
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 03-01-2013 at 01:07 PM.

  4. #4
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    There are threads like this on official forums daily. Why did you pick this one in particular?

    Anyway, I am not going to write an essay here, so I'll just address the KDR argument.

    Removing KDR achieves nothing. I know this because I am a KDR whore and I play(ed?) Tribes: Ascend where it has been removed as a statistic. I simply Tab at the end of the match and compare my kills and deaths. And even if that was removed too, I would still know how "well" I did just by playing the game. I wouldn't know my exact stats, but I would still know if I died a lot or not.

    That said, KDR whoring isn't a problem in Planetside 2 for two reasons.

    One, death is meaningful. The respawn timer is sufficiently long(what is it, 15 seconds total to Sunderer? 20 to any other facility?) and the logistics of getting back to the battle are realistic enough(read: it takes time, even if your spawn point is near the battle itself) that killing an enemy puts him out of combat for long enough to make a difference to your team. Compare that with Tribes: Ascend where death timer is five seconds, and the ease to get to high speeds combined with mostly small map sizes usually means you can be back at your corpse in ten seconds flat. This problem simply doesn't exist in Planetside 2, and players with high KDR are actively helping their team by giving it numerical advantage.

    Two, because KDR whoring is extremely rare. Significant majority of players just don't care about their KDR ratio, as evidenced by them walking into the same corridor spammed with rockets again and again and again. Or hiding behind the same rock, despite the location being spammed with rockets, again and again and again. Do not mistake people who farm - which is a way to get XP - with KDR whores; they might seem similar, but they're not(Basically, people who just want to farm XP don't care when they die, and people who want to get high KDR do).

  5. #5
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    - I dislike KDR, as I never use it at all.
    - I dont mind ghostcapping, but I do agree that it should scale with more people there defending.
    - Influence should be important. I like the way influence works now, that even if you cut someone off thats defending, they can still successfull hold a point till their connection reestablishes.
    - I dont think vehicles are overpowered, but I think the resource system is largely underused.
    - I like being infantry.
    - I agree that all certs should be spent on all classes, but I assume they want to promote class specialisation, but instead, it breeds mmo grindyness. could be, I dont play enough for this to be an issue, apparently.
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  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    - I agree that all certs should be spent on all classes, but I assume they want to promote class specialisation, but instead, it breeds mmo grindyness. could be, I dont play enough for this to be an issue, apparently.
    Especially about this point, it's been only one month for most of us, but I've already progressed a lot at my main classes and vehicles, and also spent CPs at classes and vehicles that I only occasionally use, just as a back up for the outfit. I think that any way to cert faster, or share certs among classes, would diminish somewhat the longevity of the game, and make the gap between new players (that are essential to keep the game going) and older ones even greater. It does feel grindy sometimes, but on the other hand, within a month almost everyone has a decently upgraded main vehicle and a couple of specialized classes.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 03-01-2013 at 01:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    On a side note, here is Malorn's Manifesto:
    http://www.ps2.riptidegaming.com/?p=22

    He is apparently a PS1 veteran, and an influential one at that. It is a long read (I just skimmed through it), but it does raise a lot of interesting points about gameplay balance and design philosophy.

  8. #8
    Lesser Hivemind Node Feldspar's Avatar
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    I think the main point missed out on that first post (didn't read down the thread, I suffer from allergies to official forums) is fun.

    What I see there is "the most efficient way to play the game", "the best way to play the game", the only way to play the game" and not "I have the most fun playing when...". It seems the point of the game is to earn certs. I'm sorry, but I play the game to fill time and have a bit of fun riding about in vehicles and shooting people on foot with like-minded people, oh, and die a lot.

    I don't care about grinding, once I find myself doing that I get bored fast. KDR? I do look at it to laugh at how badly I'm doing.

    As for base defenses, yes, I'm sure there's some balancing that could be done there, but with care, slowing down base assaults and defenses also could slow down the fun, basing the amount of XP giving on how hard the base was fought over might actually be a good idea.

    I'm certain there a lot of people who take the game far more seriously than me, I'm a patient person who can wait until he unlocks the new toys and probably won't specialise heavily in anything.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    On a side note, here is Malorn's Manifesto:
    http://www.ps2.riptidegaming.com/?p=22

    He is apparently a PS1 veteran, and an influential one at that. It is a long read (I just skimmed through it), but it does raise a lot of interesting points about gameplay balance and design philosophy.
    A highly amusing read too, since I'm just going over his "pillars of PS1 design" and thinking to myself "this is not in PS2... this is not in PS2... this is not in PS2... this is in PS2 but only in the negative aspect..." and so on.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    BuzzCuts post was probably posted since he is the leader of the arguably biggest and also most disciplined outfit in PS2, as well as his entire post was well written and very rage-free (also 90% of the official forums is OMG PAY2WIN!1111!!).

    One thing I noticed now that I don't agree with is the infantry part - I don't think vehicles are that OP. Infantry is effective, fun and racks in kills as well. Regarding the KDR I think many people don't mind it, but it's pretty obvious FPS skills matter way more then tactics regarding cert gain. I think that's a problem that he addresses nicely, even though he might focus on the KDR a bit much.

    Regarding fun, I think PS2 is the most fun I've had in a game in a very long time. That being said, if you are as BuzzCut, and to a lesser extent like me, fun is winning and being effective. I don't really enjoy games if I lose or if I'm bad at them for playing a specific way. If there's then a specific way to maximize effectivness and personally "winning" that actively encourages people not to fight tactically (like camping a sundy instead of destroying it), there's a problem.

    XP should be made much more dynamic. If there's a sundy that's spawning tons of infantry constantly, make it so that you get more XP for destroying it then farming it for a minute or so. Every sundy should not be 5000 xp, but the one's that are extremely crucial and valuable should be. Dynamic XP and the mission system in that way would help so goddamn much to encourage people to fight and not farm.

  11. #11
    Lesser Hivemind Node apricotsoup's Avatar
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    I agree with a surprisingly (for me) large part of this.

    I wouldn't say vehicles are necessarily overpowered but there are specialisation problems between various different sources. Anti air in general is largely only effective against air (it can get kills on others and I have numerous infantry kills with my burster max but it's far far less effective than an anti-infantry weapon) compared to something like rocket-pods which are hugely effective against all targets and HE rounds which obliterate infantry and aren't that noticeably worse against armour than more specialised sources.

    Sorting out some of that along with the dynamic xp ideas are a good way of keeping me interested :3

  12. #12
    I haven't read the two linked posts yet (I will this evening because they possibly make valid points). But those threads always make me feel like I'm doing something wrong when I'm simply enjoying the game.

    The state of the game for me personally is that it's awesome and I'm enjoying it greatly. I recognize there are two things missing in the game (Tutorial and Metagame - which basically is the ghost capping issue) and I don't like that shop purchases are restricted to one character. And that's it. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they'll further develop the game.

    [Edit]
    Oh... and regarding balance issues. It's quite funny, because I thought air was overpowered but after the triple station cash friday there are A LOT more Skyguards and double burster Maxes on the field and at the moment I can't see anything to be really overpowered.
    Last edited by TehK; 03-01-2013 at 05:37 PM.

  13. #13
    I agree with He for tanks being overpowered. There's little to no reason to run AP or even HEAT when you have a gun that dominates the most numerous threat to tanks, but can also nuke any tank and destroy it.

    Hopefully SOE fix this stuff next patch, I think the community as a wholes making a helluva a lot of noise over these things.

  14. #14
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bobtree's Avatar
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    Planetside 2 has potential, and I've had some fun with it, but it's become very disappointing. I like the action, the vehicles, and the fights, but there's no real GAME there. You can't win! It's just a big team-deathmatch sandbox with a ridiculous xp/level/unlock treadmill.

    Strategy, pressure, and teamplay keep me coming back in games like BF2142, ETQW, and NS2. Planetside 2 basically doesn't have this at all. The meta/strategy layer is a "maybe this will matter someday" feature, and that sucks. The persistent character/server/unlock stuff is worse than pointless. The continent-map switching actively undermines large scale strategic play.

    It also has lots of minor issues: balance, interface annoyances, map population stacking, crashes, a jetpack breaking bug, lame sprint-toggle, bad night visibility, etc.

    Planetside 2 is sadly underdeveloped, and without some serious structure in the strategic play I'm quickly losing interest.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Oh, Esoteric, what can of worms have you opened!

  16. #16
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    as someone who plays almost 100% of the time as infantry, i don't find the vehicles to be that overpowered. i would like capping/defending to matter more, though (a whole lot more); taking a base should reward you with 10-15x the amount of xp it currently does (and defending a base should give the same).

    capping a facility gives 1k xp max. i can get 1k xp by killing ~7 people (with the headshot + killstreak bonuses). that's silly.

  17. #17
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    I'd like my C4 to be cheaper. I'm stuck without any at this point, and I'm always using it to blow up tanks.
    Also, deconstructing a vehicle should not deny the kill XP. Or you shouldn't be able to deconstruct it unless it hasn't taken damage in the past twenty or so seconds.
    And everything in the game is an upgrade- everything should start with a base ability for each slot, even if not upgraded.
    And there's no reason to use anything other than the nanoweave unless you have a specific need for it. I use the bonus sprint on my LA, but that's because I'm a horrible gremlin that shows up to remove someone from existence with my shotgun, then I vanish around a corner.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    While I might like capping points to matter more, I do believe that increasing reward will only break the game even more, due to zergy nature of capping. We would employ zerg to zerg fights more, what isn't fun at all.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoon View Post
    And there's no reason to use anything other than the nanoweave unless you have a specific need for it. I use the bonus sprint on my LA, but that's because I'm a horrible gremlin that shows up to remove someone from existence with my shotgun, then I vanish around a corner.
    Medics are better off with Flak. If you own Bio, you're better with Flak. If you use the slow-healing medkits in combat, you're better with Flak. Why? Maths.

    Also, the Adrenaline thing for LA is horrible. It's 10% speed boost... on sprint only. If you want to be a shotgun gremlin don't sprint, fly and rain shotgun on your enemies.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Oh, Esoteric, what can of worms have you opened!
    Ď know, right? I thought it would be interesting to hear what you peeps here think, since I have some manner of respect for you and your opinions.

    Mohorovicic; I chose the post I linked for two reasons; firstly I'd just read it, and secondly, I found it to be well-written and thought through, making several points that I agreed with, and some that I didn't.

    I am in love with this game at the moment. There are a few things that chafe, but overall this is the game of the year of 2012 for me.

    I, for one, believe that facilities should be a bit more defensible; removing the spawn teleporter from tech plants seems like a bad move, for instance. Also, having a few less windows, and more protected entrances to buildings would make vehicles a bit less effective at base camping, and perhaps switch the vehicle combat more into the field, where I believe it makes for the most fun play. The same goes for aircraft. Good pilots should be rewarded for their skills, if it makes them able to get below covered walkways etc, but flying a liberator to the flight ceiling and carpet bombing a base should not be quite as effective as it is, I think, however much fun it may be for those in it.

    Finally, drastically diminishing the amount of XP for killing a newly spawned enemy would probably make spawn farming less interesting, which is a good thing, because spawn farming might be the worst kind of asshattery out there. Don't get me wrong here, I have nothing against spawn camping, that's a valid method of denying the enemy access to a facility and to keep it locked down, but spawn farming, i.e. killing the guys spawning from the sunderer rather than taking the sunderer itself out, is just bad style and should be discouraged.

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