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  1. #1201
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    I wouldn't have an issue because at the very least I'd have a rough idea of how to get back at the bastard that blew up my sundie. The thing with regards to rendering range, I'm running a 560Ti, it's not exactly a low end card, so if I'm having problems with render range then it's fair to assume that a lot of people are - especially considering the game is running on Dx9. Render range would have minimal impact on CPU load, especially if at long distance it were just rough approximations, which would be good enough for me. The game has to be tracking the source for my client to even recognise the projectile, so a couple of dark pixels in the distance (the terrain's already rendered, after all) would be good enough for me.
    Actually infantry render distance (and not terrain render distance, which is the slider in the game settings) is extremely CPU and network intensive. The CPU has to keep track of everyone within infantry render distance limit, and receive and send updates about them. Whether they render in graphics and audio or not, the server and the CPU must know. The server does some estimations, based on class, weapon used, distance and threat, to do some culling, but still. The graphical part is the least of the problems. Memory size and bandwith, CPU speed, cache and number of supported threads, network speed and reliability are far more important factors.

    Also, since it is about core gameplay balance, they have to support the minimum requirements, and do all that in what is perceived as real time, even with client side prediction. Still, they have expanded infantry render distance already (during the first couple of months infantry would pop in and out of existence right in front of you during huge battles, even when on foot), and they plan to do it again repeatedly. One of the more unnoticed improvements, but which has greatly optimised the game, was when they did optimisation of the database and data structures.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 02-05-2013 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #1202
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    There's some misunderstanding of "rendering range" going on here.
    Infantry do not render beyond a certain distance (~300m) for anyone, because the server does not send them the information. As areas get busier, this distance becomes increasingly short, down to 30-40m for really hectic fights.

    Vehicles however are shown from much further away (~1K normally I think). Maxes somewhere in between.

    Units you cannot see you cannot hurt (you can fire at exactly where they are, but there will be no damage). Units you cannot see, if they hurt you, you also cannot see any tracer or indication of where the damage is coming from.

    Mana AV turrets are highly problematic in that they make it easy to damage vehicles which have no opportunity to avoid or fight back. They're also do massive damage, well in excess of pretty much any other AT weapon (Decimator maybe comes close? None of the tanks guns do however).

    Oh, snipers also really struggle to take people out on AV turrets, as the collision box for the turret does not match the model, so to snipe successfully requires knowledge of the actual collision box, and the ability to translate that on to your target.

  3. #1203
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    And by the way, AV turrets are considered vehicles, and are rendered outside of infantry render distance and within vehicle render distance. The problem is that the engineer is infantry, so you assume that noone is there, but then he pops the turret down, should render, and shoots. The turret renders, but because of lag perhaps not in time, and at extreme long ranges it is unlikely anyone will notice, because it appears so small, might as well be dust on your monitor.

    The projectile is bugged as it doesn't render some times. The aforementioned problem comes into play mostly with rocket launchers, especially the Empire Specific ones.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 02-05-2013 at 02:45 PM.

  4. #1204
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    But what other class has to resupply their class abilities? Should LA's have a limited amount of fuel in their jet packs, to stop them getting to out of reach places to drop a spawn beacon, which is probably how those engineers are getting up to some of these spots in the first place. Mines, c4 and jesus grenades don't count because they're not part of the basic class ability. Though maybe it's an issue that the engineer even has access to other class abilities, where as the others don't.

    What's the difference between 3 engineers using MANA AV and say 3 Heavies all working together? I guess the heavies would eventually run out of ammo, but they could get resupplied. Perhaps the MANA AV needs limited ammo which takes a long time to recharge. You get 5 shots out of it and it'll take 3 minutes to resupply itself and has to be set up again.
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  5. #1205
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    Difference is that the three engineers can kill a tank/sundy almost instantly and indefinitely, while three heavies are basically no threat at the ranges we're talking about (unless they're lancers, but it's going to take them a while to actually kill you), and they're going to run out of ammo eventually.

    And it's not about equality here. The engineer's class ability pretty much operates beyond the rules that govern most other things in the game at the moment (range, damage, accuracy), and it's breaking the vehicle game. Need long range bombardment? AV Mana. Need to kill a sundy at close range? Plow down the AV MANA, fire a shot, put a new one down. Just in case. And on top of that, you can do fire and forget, and basically be immune to retaliation by anything but an esf.

  6. #1206
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    And by the way, AV turrets are considered vehicles, and are rendered outside of infantry render distance and within vehicle render distance. The problem is that the engineer is infantry, so you assume that noone is there, but then he pops the turret down, should render, and shoots. The turret renders, but because of lag perhaps not in time, and at extreme long ranges it is unlikely anyone will notice, because it appears so small, might as well be dust on your monitor.
    So even if you do spot and blow up the turret before it blows up you, the engineer manning it stood right in the middle of the blast radius doesn't get hurt because they're not rendered, and then can just plonk another one down essentially straight away? Jeez, fun.

    At the very least, infantry actually manning turrets should be rendered alongside the turrets.
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  7. #1207
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    Oh no.. who cares if it is called ability or utility or thingmajinger? Engineer class ability could be nukes for all I care, they still needs to be balanced. They have the repair tool, that is their ability... also Infiltrators their scout darts? Yeah you need an ammo box or a resupply to get extra ammo for that. The AV turret is also not part of their basic ability, that is their repair tool and ammo box. You know the thing that makes them unique in that they can resupply troops and repair tanks.

    The AV Mana turret needs to destroyable for a significant amount of time, just like a spawn beacon. It also needs to have reduced range and/or damage. There just is no defending the current state of the turret. It is extremely easy to use, extremely powerful, extremely long range anti tank weapon that deals more damage than just about any other anti tank weapon in the game. Seriously it is the easiest weapon in the game to use, the only tricky part is finding a slope that is acceptable for deployment. If the damage was tuned down to actually deal less damage than a dumbfire rocket it could be an ok weapon to have. Helps base defenses by providing a long range weapon against armor, but not something a lone guy can set up and kill 2-3 tanks before they can even get to hit him.

    The AV Mana turret also needs to have it hitbox fixed, it covers way more of the engineer that it should be, you can stand to the side of it and still not hit the engineer. Another fix it needs is to kill the rocket or add drop to it as soon as the engineer leaves the turret. So that they are actually exposed and vulnerable like they are supposed to. It should also have a very clear and visible trail like a pheonix/striker/lancer. Not a dark grey smoke that does not even render when they hit you from 500m away.

    Anyway we should be happy we have the Saron because we actually have a weapon on our tanks that lets us fight back over the extreme distances the turret tends to be used.


    Edit: If you kill the turret the engineer dies if hei s manning the turret. Even if he does not render. But 99% of engineers do not sit in their turret, they fire, align the rocket and get out.
    Last edited by Wardancer; 02-05-2013 at 03:02 PM.

  8. #1208
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    So even if you do spot and blow up the turret before it blows up you, the engineer manning it stood right in the middle of the blast radius doesn't get hurt because they're not rendered, and then can just plonk another one down essentially straight away? Jeez, fun.

    At the very least, infantry actually manning turrets should be rendered alongside the turrets.
    Especially frustrating when sniping as an infiltrator. At the edge of the infantry render distance, you see the turret, and the Engineer appears and disappears. Plus the fact that the turret hitbox is not the same as the model, and you miss when you should have got a headshot.

  9. #1209
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quite an infected topicthis! For good reason to be sure. I'd like to see some kind of balancing pass on the thing at any rate.

  10. #1210
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    The turret is part of their ability. The medics ability is that he can heal people through a tool and heal himself and others with the nanite system. The tool, being able to resupply troops and having a turret is all part of being an engineer.

    I wasn't aware that the scout darts needed to be resupplied. Can they be done through an ammo box or just at a console? If so, then it'd be fair that the turrets act the same way, or that you only get to carry one turret, it has to be deconstructed on you have to return to a console to get another.

    @Eso, maybe I just misunderstood you. Personally I think one MANA AV turret should still be capable of taking out a tank or a sundy. Not in one shot mind, but it should be feasible. Perhaps beyond that, it might need some rebalancing (hit box size, cd etc). If a bunch of engineers want to get together though and have a MANA AV party and use their combined tactics to quick fire tanks down, that's a totally valid and intelligent tactic. It has a counter though, ESF or infantry. It's not God Mode.
    Last edited by Jesus_Phish; 02-05-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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  11. #1211
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    In my opinion they should do the following to help the AV turret situation:


    1. Add a highly obvious smoke trailer leading directly back to the turret. The defender can see where the fire is coming from, and can take evasive action. Eventually the engineers view of the target becomes obscured by the smoke of their own shots. They have to move or they just can't see.
    2. Increase the cool down on placing it. The choice on whether to move or stay becomes more interesting.
    3. Change the slots on the engineer to be AV and AI. Rather than choosing between which type of turret and which type of mine to bring. You'd be choosing between the AV turret or the AV mines; AI mines or the AI turret. At the moment pretty much every engineer who owns the AV turret walks around with AV turret (the AI turret is just far less useful).

  12. #1212
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Yeah, that seems reasonable to me. Dismantle the turret of you'll have to go back and withdraw a new one from the armoury. That seems like a good sacrifice for its power. The mana anti-personnel turret could get a little bit of a buff if it worked like that, I'd say.

  13. #1213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    The turret is part of their ability. The medics ability is that he can heal people through a tool and heal himself and others with the nanite system. The tool, being able to resupply troops and having a turret is all part of being an engineer.

    I wasn't aware that the scout darts needed to be resupplied. Can they be done through an ammo box or just at a console? If so, then it'd be fair that the turrets act the same way, or that you only get to carry one turret, it has to be deconstructed on you have to return to a console to get another.

    It does not matter what other classes have but yes recon darts need to be resupplied from boxes or infantry stations, so does HA rockets. Or should they be infinite too? It does not matter if it is an ability or not, it has no bearing on the balance of the item whatsoever. If you gave the LA a pocket nuke and called it their class ability should that be infinite too then? Yes its a stupid example but it highlights just how silly the "but its their class ability" defense is.

    The AV mana turret needs a major overhaul, especially since it is a direct and clear upgrade in every way from the standard turret. Something that should not be in the game.

    Edit: Generally the game has many problems with infantry vs vehicle combat. Vehicles have to choose their targets when they spawn, if they go anti tank they are horrible vs infantry, if they go anti infantry they are horrible against tanks. HA has some of the best anti infantry weapons and very powerful anti tank weapons at the same time. This is just an unbelievably stupid idea.
    Last edited by Wardancer; 02-05-2013 at 03:16 PM.

  14. #1214
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surlywombat View Post
    In my opinion they should do the following to help the AV turret situation:


    1. Add a highly obvious smoke trailer leading directly back to the turret. The defender can see where the fire is coming from, and can take evasive action. Eventually the engineers view of the target becomes obscured by the smoke of their own shots. They have to move or they just can't see.
    2. Increase the cool down on placing it. The choice on whether to move or stay becomes more interesting.
    3. Change the slots on the engineer to be AV and AI. Rather than choosing between which type of turret and which type of mine to bring. You'd be choosing between the AV turret or the AV mines; AI mines or the AI turret. At the moment pretty much every engineer who owns the AV turret walks around with AV turret (the AI turret is just far less useful).
    yeah but I have AI mines and the AV turret. halp
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  15. #1215
    I always thought the ability of an infantryman to go toe-to-toe against a tank was a little unrealistic (for a given definition in a game with lasers and hovertanks). If an infantry column runs into an armour column without any prior knowledge in a real warzone, 95% of them will die. It seems like the devs would rather players feel like they have options, but that really kind of forces tank drivers to feel underpowered I think.

  16. #1216
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    I do wish tanks didn't have to gimp themselves to being either good against other tanks or good against infantry.
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  17. #1217
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    im sorry but short of introducing an ammo system where you can carry different kinds of ammo for the same system, as it is for tanks (unless they have a top mounted turret), thats actually how it is with tanks. they have different rounds for different situations. also, noone is stopping you from mounting a basilisk on your mag.
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  18. #1218
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    They could have easily done that for the Lightning. The only gun that would need to be different on that is the AA one. The others are all just a mix of Good vs armour/bad vs infantry, good vs infantry/bad against armour or middle of the road. Instead of buying different guns (bar the skyguard) you buy access to ammo types.

    And of course nothings stopping me putting a basilisk on my mag, but who says I'm in a mag?
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  19. #1219
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    Whoever I was discussing repairing the Harasser from the rumble seat with last night, disregard my comments:

    https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/330159859112751104

    Looks like engineer repairs from Flash/Harasser rumble seats is being removed, because we all know nanites only work when you have boots on the ground.

  20. #1220
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    Quote Originally Posted by simbo042 View Post
    Whoever I was discussing repairing the Harasser from the rumble seat with last night, disregard my comments:

    https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/330159859112751104

    Looks like engineer repairs from Flash/Harasser rumble seats is being removed, because we all know nanites only work when you have boots on the ground.
    Probably to fix the problem with people repairing and then switching seats which creates a permanent repair effect. If 2 people do that on the harasser it is pretty much indestructible.

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