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  1. #2861

  2. #2862
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    Had actually read the harasser balance post before but a couple of new things stood out. Vehicle secondary AI weapons getting a close range buff = hit and run PPA fun? Also improved hit detection for tank mines - will be nice to have them explode more reliably.

  3. #2863
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Mines will still be huge pizza slice boxes.

    Oh and angry rant, I hope they nerf ZOE 6 feet under.
    Last edited by Bankrotas; 06-11-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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  4. #2864
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    What's wrong with ZOE? The few times I've fought against it I found the increased damage taken really helped me.

  5. #2865
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    If you see a ZOE max it deserves to be shot to bits. ZOE is not to be used constantly. It is for situations where you are NOT being fired upon and flanking. Want a get away/getinto a fight faster. use charge, its loads better. Whenever i see a ZOE constantly have it turned on, I want to stick a decimator in the back of their head

  6. #2866
    Activated Node DukeOfChutney's Avatar
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    i think the ZOE is about on the level now. It is still the best Max ability, but it isn't excessive. With an NC max i can sometimes clean off a ZOE max in one clip without having to reload, with a non ZOE or TR max i can't do this.

  7. #2867
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I'd rather see both damage received and movement speed buff both reduced. Make them more durable, stop them running faster than infantry.
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  8. #2868
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    I don't do these very often and this is not gonna be a constructive rant, but I need to say some things, cause even if I don't look patient, I am. However, facing ZOE's ticks me off so much, that I need to vent.

    Let's start this with one thing. I know how to kill maxes, since my first C4 9 max kill streak, till now, I have been killing TR and VS maxes enough, to feel strong enough facing a max. Cause I can outsmart and outmaneuver normal maxes. Yes, they sometimes outsmart me or are careful enough not to get into my traps, sometimes C4 bugs out, sometimes rocket doesn't connect, there are such incidents, but usually I take out maxes out of commission.

    Sadly with ZOE out on a field I started having issues, I can't take it on, I can't lure it while outmaneuvering it, cause it is fucking fast. I can't outgun it and I die too fast to set C4 off or sometimes even to drop it. God damn it, you move walking almost as fast as you run with ZOE, which means, you can keep firing and chasing me without sacrificing your accuracy for sprint speed and CoF. Adding required manpower to overpower one max considering, that other maxes can be taken out solo is only first thing to tip scales of balance in ZOEs favour.

    Sending our own max is just a death mission to him. If ZOE max is smart it can outrange it quite easily anywhere but ill luck corner misshaps.
    Don't give me shit, that important buildings don't have enough space to outrange a shotgun, only places that are that small are AMP station genrooms and Tower cap points (that are being moved out of the towers mostly) and those have 2 entrances, small enough space to C4 the max inside and actually flank it inside.

    Here's one more thing, Sluggs on maxes do 500 damage per shot, which means, 3/4 of our weapons on maxes with EXMAGS do 10k damage total, Grinders do 12k damage, now do the math, if ZOE is wearing KA5, what happens to NC Max with dual extended slugged shotguns? That is, if we hit all shots with slugs, which of course always happens, right?

    Now, if we take normal buckshots and are able to catch ZOE at 1 meter, cause there is fucking issue with NC max point blank too, where you can't hit shit, so any max who touches us kills us. Turning ZOE on and off now takes an instant and here's what we run into: Hacksaws fullcliping with EXmags do 15k damage, Scats do 15.6k damage and mattocks less than 14k. Only Grinders deal decent amount of damage at cost of second highest cone of fire, what means, more pellets miss, but it's our only weapon option (thank SOE, it's only 250 certs to buy them.)

    So how would you tell me I can send an NC max to deal with ZOE, when I know, he will most likely be just murdered?
    Adding to that, here's one more issue. Shotguns don't scale as well as longer range weapons in mass, they're "good" in 1v1 situations and breaching point as a suicide line, but that's it.

    Continuing ZOE has way greater force multiplier value than slow shotgun wielding max and non ZOE max. Sure they go down fast, but there's a breaking point, where DPS just trumps defense. Good offense is great defense and even if ZOE maxes go down at the point of defense usefulness breakdown you usually have enough support personal to keep higher amount of your maxes up. And you know what, fighting that relentless wave after wave of zoe is fucking agravating and makes me want to kick a kitten.

    IT'S NOT FUCKING FUN.
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  9. #2869
    Activated Node DukeOfChutney's Avatar
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    I hadn't considered the out door issue with a zoe vs infantry. This is a fair point. With the other issues, i'd suggest that the NC max at this stage is rather under powered. It can do 1 thing well, 1 on 1, or 1 on 2 fights at a range less than 5m. In all other situations the other maxes are better than it, and both the TR and VS maxes are also very good at the sub 5m range and with a much larger clip size.
    I would actually argue that both VS and TR maxes are now better in biolab fights, since ours can be so easily out ranged and unable to lay down consistent massed fire. An NC max cannot control a corridor in the way a VS or TR max can. It lacks both the range and the clip size to do it. All it can really do is specialize in ambushing people running through doorways, or be used as Bank says as a breaking point attack with its shield.

  10. #2870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bankrotas View Post
    Continuing ZOE has way greater force multiplier value than slow shotgun wielding max and non ZOE max. Sure they go down fast, but there's a breaking point, where DPS just trumps defense. Good offense is great defense and even if ZOE maxes go down at the point of defense usefulness breakdown you usually have enough support personal to keep higher amount of your maxes up. And you know what, fighting that relentless wave after wave of zoe is fucking agravating and makes me want to kick a kitten.

    IT'S NOT FUCKING FUN.
    Yeah ... tell that to the 30 wasp dudes holding a single building against wave after wave after wave of VS this week. There was no way in hell we could have taken it with equal numbers, and their position only fell once we outnumbered them 2:1 ... after they had farmed us for a good 20 minutes. NC maxes in buildings are STILL fucking scary and theyre STILL ridiculously good multipliers there. I'm not gonna say that they don't deserve a better ranged option when flamers are introduced tho.

    Anyway, while ZOE isn't entirely balanced, your tirade isn't justified. It will get adjusted but i would not expect too much. ZOE isn't the god mode you're pretending it is (you know what is though? the freaking shield on the vanguard. magrider vs vanguard balance has been in a ridiculous state for ages).

  11. #2871
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz View Post
    Yeah ... tell that to the 30 wasp dudes holding a single building against wave after wave after wave of VS this week. There was no way in hell we could have taken it with equal numbers, and their position only fell once we outnumbered them 2:1 ... after they had farmed us for a good 20 minutes. NC maxes in buildings are STILL fucking scary and theyre STILL ridiculously good multipliers there. I'm not gonna say that they don't deserve a better ranged option when flamers are introduced tho.

    Anyway, while ZOE isn't entirely balanced, your tirade isn't justified. It will get adjusted but i would not expect too much. ZOE isn't the god mode you're pretending it is (you know what is though? the freaking shield on the vanguard. magrider vs vanguard balance has been in a ridiculous state for ages).
    So you're telling me, that you needed 2x numbers to break 30 organized guys of one the best (if not best teamplay) outfits NC has one of few places which slightly still favour NC max while slightly misfavouring ZOE and expect me to be conviced? I'm more surprised that they couldn't hold you 2 to 1 for another 20 minutes. They're good, really good when it counts. Singling them out, won't earn you many points.

    Never I said, ZOE is god mode, all I said is that you can't fucking manage it solo unlike other maxes, which makes ZOE max worth of 2 players efforts to bring it down, that makes it annoying to say the least. Have you faced ZOE in a biolab, the annoying dread feels same, as it was when hackmax was in it's prime. It's fucking ridiculous and as was with pre nerf NC max, not fun at all.

    Funny thing is, NC probably won't get a midrange option with all the luck we have. So you'll be having all the flamethrowers, prior to which NC maxes will be nerfed again, just to get more flamer sales.

    Be judge and jury for all you please, but I still have the fucking right to have my opinion and this is it and your attempts to turn this discussion onto part I don't care about won't help.

    ZOE should be nerfed to all hell and redone later on to be only useful AI non max, so you could feel how NC needs to choose between killing infantry in +5-8 more meters with less than half of our clip, or be able to kill maxes with Grinders.
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  12. #2872
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    Since when is WASP one of the best NC outfits around? We weren't terribly unorganised and WASP wasn't terribly organised. It was just a standard max and medic heavy point hold that was made impossible to breach at equal numbers (and with a decent advantage) by their mattocks and grinders. This is neither unusual nor unexpected.

    Here’s some food for thought: before ZOE, NC maxes absolutely dominated the KPU stats. Right now, VS maxes are performing the best, but the difference to NC maxes is actually quite small. For example, the blueshift has a peak performance that is 1.6% higher than the mattock. It’s a 8.5% difference between the hacksaws and the nebula at peak. The average difference across all guns except the starting guns is 12.9%.

    So, yeah … you can have your own opinion, but your suggestion to nerf zoe to hell and take care of it later is neither rational nor justified by the data. I mean .. imagine I demanded that the vanguard shield suddenly only stopped infantry based attacks because of the clear imbalance in MBT abilities (and this is relevant because these abilities are the only other ES abilities in the game). This is just as unreasonable as your suggestion.

    P.S. I wouldn’t dream of attempting to solo any NC max unless he is absolutely not aware of me. Experience tells me that it’s invariably suicide. Why do you think you should solo VS and TR maxes?
    Last edited by qaz; 06-11-2013 at 09:34 PM.

  13. #2873
    Network Hub eltdown's Avatar
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    Hmm... I don't think the old KPU stats can be taken at face value. They might simply indicate that NC players were very good at pulling MAXs only when appropriate, ie. for short-range ambushes and point-room fights.

    NC MAXs have extremely limited mid-range AI options, which is hugely frustrating and part of the reason I rarely pull one - and by mid-range I mean anywhere that isn't a small room. Also frustrating because I know VS and TR MAXs have those options whilst being on around equal footing at short ranges as well.

    Another often-missed point is that most NC MAX weapons are semi-auto so it's almost impossible to maintain maximum DPS unless you have a metronome with you.

    Soloing a MAX (which I rarely do) would involve concussion grenades and dumbfire rockets or flash grenades and C4 for me, not sure how Bankrotas does it. That strafe and speed on ZOE MAXs is hard to handle though, both with rocket launchers and C4 traps.

    Whilst I can't really agree with the "nerf to hell and fix later" sentiment, it would be awesome if ZOE MAXs didn't outrun infantry in return for less damage taken or a similar tradeoff.

  14. #2874
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I've never had any problems taking on a MAX solo as infantry (save ZOE). Dance around scenery, make sure you let your shield recharge, and presumably if you're facing an NC MAX just keep 10m away, and you should be able to win a reasonable amount of the time. Which is why I think ZOE's speed should be brought down to infantry speed. It's also why I switched to slugs, because a lot of people are complacent in their ability to solo an NC MAX safe in the knowledge that shotguns can't hit them. I'd recommend trying to solo MAXes, it can work well, especially if the MAX has an ego.

    On another note, Vanguard is statistically on par with Magrider.
    Last edited by mickygor; 07-11-2013 at 12:13 AM.
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  15. #2875
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    A few points on the ZOE MAX.

    On MAX-infantry balance -

    1vs1, the ZOE MAX can chase down fleeing infantry well. This is slightly true of other MAXes, but ZOE has a far better chance of getting a lone target.

    ZOE is useless when fighting 3+ infantry. It increases the damage of all the incoming fire, while only increasing the damage of your outgoing fire. You can kill Target 1 quickly, but by the time you're on your third target, you have taken proportionately higher damage than you've given out due to ZOE. Keep in mind the TTK on infantry is low without ZOE - with maximum ZOE, you're killing them, what, 1 or 2 bullets faster?

    Yeah, it's a bit easier to dodge rockets and C4. But as the number of incoming explosives and bullets increases (say, 3+), that quickly becomes negated by the increased damage you're taking. One Decimator shot will absolutely floor you.

    Now, other MAXes are also weak to multiple infantry, but with ZOE it is very, very noticeable. You can't really rely on tanking so much damage as other MAXes when charging a room, and you need supporting fire just so you're not the only target.

    NC MAXes are in a weird place. As infantry, inside their controlled zone (maybe 15m), I assume death is coming swiftly and try to get off a grenade or some C4 before my atoms are scattered across the cosmos. Outside of this zone, you can choose to run or damage the MAX as you please. They lack any real way of controlling the fight, without using Charge (which can be limited). The Shield doesn't help much, since once its deployed, the infantry can just run with impunity.

    On MAX-MAX balance -

    Now, in a 1vs1 MAX fight, ZOE's mobility and increased damage actually begin to stack up. Enemy MAXes can't move to keep up with us, and the extra damage actually means something, since MAXes take so much AI fire to go down.

    When fighting TR MAXes, it's basically a decent matchup (assuming they haven't got Fractures on -_-), but NC MAXes have that issue of firefight control again. Outside of 15m, a ZOE MAX can just strafe and run backwards faster than the NC MAX can run and shoot. Inside of 15m, the ZOE MAX can run in circles focusing fire on the NC MAX, who has to be dead-on accurate or else get quickly out DPS-ed. It seems like NC MAXes' only option is to not miss and hope they can corner the ZOE or get it trapped somewhere.

    Against multiple targets, see previous thoughts on ZOE. You simply cannot afford to leave it on against multiple enemies, especially MAXes and infantry who know you're coming.



    ZOE is tremendously fun and useful, but anyone who thinks that a platoon of ZOE MAXes in a big fight is somehow any more powerful than a platoon of regular VS MAXes would be is mistaken. Multiple ZOE MAXes hitting a defended room are taking more extra damage than they are possibly giving out. It's only in smaller fights where ZOE is really useful, generally in one of two circumstances; You're fighting low numbers of infantry (who would be equally screwed by a MAX regardless of ZOE, you can just run after them now) or you're fighting another AI MAX, in which case the ZOE is only useful if can actually bait the enemy MAX properly and keep it at the right distance (which takes skill to pay off).

    The conclusion one comes to is that the NC MAX needs some work. Maybe a bit of a buff to accuracy, and a decent mid-range option to give it some control over firefights outside of 15m distance. Also, maybe make the shield give either increased resistance or speed (or both), to allow NC MAXes to actually use it to close distances effectively.

  16. #2876
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I'm not too sure the issue lies with MAXvsMAX gameplay. I've simply come to accept that our MAX isn't good against other MAXes any more. I cannot drop an enemy MAX, ZOE or not, before they drop me, even with Aegis. I'm not too fussed about that, I'll leave MAXes for the heavies, and focus on engis and medics instead. What I do take issue with is MAXvsInf. Looking at statistics, VS is the only faction with an AI KPU above 10, and that's all their weapons achieving that. To say that ZOE drops too quickly doesn't make sense when they still manage to consistently achieve the highest KPU despite the number of people running into a room full of enemies all juiced up with ZOE. If anything it says they don't drop quick enough. And since ZOE doesn't particularly improve TTK, it has to be the movement speed which is making the difference. There's just no other explanation.
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  17. #2877
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    There is another (kinda). Of course the movement speed makes a difference. But not in the way you are thinking.

    People flee when the see a ZOE. people flee when they see all maxes, but ZOE can chase them down. That's all that it is. People need to learn to stand their ground, the KPU will drop like a stone.

    I still see ZOE as a handicap though, I rarely use it over charge these days. I don't believe it's ZOE that needs to be changed, it's players mentality to maxes.

    I've solo'd many a max but thats from knowing how to take them. NC you make some distance, TR you close the gap right in their face. ZOE, you flank and ambush.

    If I had mines on my NC engy the number of VS max kills under my belt would be silly. Run around a corner, place mines on the way. Boom. They will follow cos they know they can.

  18. #2878
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    With Zoe you do not need C4 to kill the max, just shoot him and he will go down quickly.

    NC maxes needs to start using their falcons, what do VS maxes do when we face enemy maxes? Use blueshifts? hell no. Comets. What do TR maxes do? Fractures. Yes Falcons in a kind of weird place but they are not useless, they have massive burst potential and decent bullet speed and will increase the killing range versus enemy maxes significantly. The only thing that falcons could use is a slightly higher splash damage due do them only having 1 shot per magazine.

    Yes ZoE is good, especially when compared to Lockdown but it does not feel that overpowered in itself because you die so quickly. The only time I keep it on is when doing AV work and ambushing enemy maxes but against infantry it is useless and will only get you killed. Just having 2 enemy heavies shooting you will bring you down to half health before you can kill them.

    I would rather see SOE work on getting the other max abilities up to par, Shield being wider to protect friendlies for example. Lockdown... well lockdown is always gonna suck, it is just a terribly boring ability and the only way to make it not suck is to make it overpowered as hell.

  19. #2879
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    There's another aspect to ZOE KPU (kills per user, who knew?) that I'm surprised noone has mentioned. Picture a biolab fight, with several areas of action: both pads, various teleporters and the generators. ZOE means you can get between them much faster. Being able to get to where the action is (and then run away) faster is why I use rank 1 ZOE and seems to be it's real strength.

  20. #2880
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    There's another aspect to ZOE KPU (kills per user, who knew?) that I'm surprised noone has mentioned. Picture a biolab fight, with several areas of action: both pads, various teleporters and the generators. ZOE means you can get between them much faster. Being able to get to where the action is (and then run away) faster is why I use rank 1 ZOE and seems to be it's real strength.
    And I have a question, cause, can't find answer in game. Does lvl 1 ZOE give you max speed, lowest damage buff and also lowest damage recieved?
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