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  1. #2881
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Speed buff is constant, as is damage resistance debuff. The damage buff is the only thing that increases with cert levels.
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  2. #2882
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LaKroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    Speed buff is constant, as is damage resistance debuff. The damage buff is the only thing that increases with cert levels.
    And you need to cert it to the maximum level to receive a practical damage buff in form of 1 less bullet to kill.

  3. #2883
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Ah, I see. Bit of misinformation on forumside.


    And yes, qaz, Wasp is one of the best NC miller outfits and really one of best on Miller interfactionwise.
    And yes, I know about NC max having best score prior to the nerf, by 20%. For that we got a double nerf. I also know that VS maxes had highest KDR prior to ZOE and it went all the way up after it.
    I also remember all the downplaying VS maxes effectiveness and whining about ZOE prior to it's release. And you're still doing it. Only fucking thing you really had decent claim to complain was release Lancer. At same time I was complaining about Phoenix one hitting people, because it was detriment to NC more than a useful thing.



    Dewi, no, you wouldn't get on rampage against ZOE's with betties. I've tried that tactic with C4 numerous times, placing C4 prior to luring ZOE max out, due to it's speed, he gets lag compensation and you need to be a telepath to trigger it correctly. Wasting 2 betties to try killing a max also means, you lose even if you killed him. You've wasted more resources to neutralize him, than he spawning it. And 1 is never enough, while his damage output doesn't let you finish him off.


    Wardancer, is 40m/s (Decimator rocket speed is 50m/s) is fast? Compared to double what normal rocket is. Even with best acceleration, bad convergence rate and dps of 923 doesn't make it a good weapon. Also correcting it is a bit too hard due to too big smoke trail.


    Yes, LaKroy, I know that it scales damage, 5% per level, but not equally to all weapons, some get more, some less. Now answer me, what percentage of people wear nanoweave armor, making even not max level more valuable? I'm not saying it's nerf worthy, I'm saying, you're downplaying any potential damage gain. How about taking down max or in more crowded situation with mixed damage types, would bonus damage prove good?


    Also, before someone says, glowing is negative in itself, fuck it isn't, it distorts my comprehension of the hitbox. Glow creates illusion that your max is bigger than it really is and moving sideways while glowing helps to distort attempts to aim at your slightly bigger max head.
    Last edited by Bankrotas; 07-11-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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  4. #2884
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewi View Post
    There is another (kinda). Of course the movement speed makes a difference. But not in the way you are thinking.

    People flee when the see a ZOE. people flee when they see all maxes, but ZOE can chase them down. That's all that it is. People need to learn to stand their ground, the KPU will drop like a stone.

    I still see ZOE as a handicap though, I rarely use it over charge these days. I don't believe it's ZOE that needs to be changed, it's players mentality to maxes.

    I've solo'd many a max but thats from knowing how to take them. NC you make some distance, TR you close the gap right in their face. ZOE, you flank and ambush.

    If I had mines on my NC engy the number of VS max kills under my belt would be silly. Run around a corner, place mines on the way. Boom. They will follow cos they know they can.
    It's a vicious circle, but in my experience standing my ground does nothing either. I still do it, because getting 4 hits on a MAX is better than getting none, but it doesn't net you any kills or even really slow them down on their rampage at all. To effectively take down a ZOE you either need an accurate HA with dumbfire rockets, or half a squad bringing fire to bear, which is essentially the situation you have with other MAXes as well. Falcons aren't an option either, they can't hit an MBT if it's moving (slow speed, ridiculous smoke trail, convergence, hitbox smaller than shell model), and AI mines are all but useless these days, they can't even take out infantry well let alone MAXes.

    As for a sensation of dropping too fast... I think people have just got better at the game. My Aegis shield feels a lot worse than it used to (and I never particularly liked it), and my MAX goes down a lot quicker than it used to also, despite me now being able to hit things with it. Either new weapons with objectively higher dps have been added or patched, or people aren't missing as much as they used to, but MAXes are far from the invincible machine-monsters they used to be.
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  5. #2885
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    From ingame info the Falcon is supposed to be 100m/s which apparently is not correct. Still with the limited testing I did in VR the falcon backs a hell of a punch and does not feel excessively slow, especially not at the ranges it would be used against enemy maxes. The biggest problem with them seemed to be that the rocket looks huge but has a very small hitbox so you can pretty much seen them fly through objects and not hit.

    DPS is utterly irrelevant, when you kill maxes you need to deal burst damage and you need to deal it at 10-30m range. This where people use comets this is where NC need to use their Falcons. Bringing shotguns/blushifts etc to a max is not the way to go and never should be.

    Now Falcons are bugged because they list a speed they do not reach and it should be fixed. They are damned powerful against the same targets* that Comets are.


    *Entrenched maxes, stationary sunderers and close range AV.


    As for the Aegis, they should remove the movement penalty on it and let you turn it off and on at will. Would make it a much more dynamic and fun ability to use.

  6. #2886
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LaKroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bankrotas View Post
    Yes, LaKroy, I know that it scales damage, 5% per level, but not equally to all weapons, some get more, some less. Now answer me, what percentage of people wear nanoweave armor, making even not max level more valuable? I'm not saying it's nerf worthy, I'm saying, you're downplaying any potential damage gain. How about taking down max or in more crowded situation with mixed damage types, would bonus damage prove good?
    The situation is of course complex, with different levels of nano-weave around, MAX weapons of different damage tiers, and therefore different headshot and nano-weave impact, and the possibility to hit limbs for 90% damage, if I'm not mistaken. Splash damage can go down as low as 1, meaning every hitpoint integer is possible. When all of this is taken into account, even the early levels of ZOE can have an effect on time to kill. More noticeable is the final level though, which lowers the typical bullet to kill count (bullets to the torso) by one.

  7. #2887
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LaKroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardancer View Post
    As for the Aegis, they should remove the movement penalty on it and let you turn it off and on at will. Would make it a much more dynamic and fun ability to use.
    Isn't it a toggle ability already? No cooldown as far as I know.

  8. #2888
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaKroy View Post
    Isn't it a toggle ability already? No cooldown as far as I know.
    It has 0.2s timer till it's on/off
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  9. #2889
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    I would just like to mention that both the nc and vs max perform at roughly the same level in terms of KPU, especially if we're looking at q3 and q4 data (i.e., br50 and up). TR maxes lag behind significantly, with mattocks having ~40% kpu advantage over mercies, for example. So, TR maxes do need some work (especially mercies), VS maxes need a slight decrease in effectiveness, and NC maxes could stay just as they are, as they STILL perform extremely well.

    Here's a small block from back in august:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...OU3VzZlE#gid=0

    This is the most comprehensive data dump to date (sept-oct):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wc&usp=sharing

    I kinda don't want to imagine how NC maxes performed before they were nerfed.

  10. #2890
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    With regards to TR MAX, yes they need some work, but the low KPU on their AI weapons is because they're using an AV weapon as an AI weapon. The work they need is to sort that out, but knowing SOE I guess we can't expect that any time soon.
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  11. #2891
    Activated Node DukeOfChutney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardancer View Post
    With Zoe you do not need C4 to kill the max, just shoot him and he will go down quickly.

    NC maxes needs to start using their falcons,

    This is harder than you think. Falcons have a very very slow ROF, and very very slow projectile speed. On top of this they don't actually hit the target reticule but go either side of it making hitting infantry very difficult. Further more a it takes at least 2 direct hits from a falcon to drop a heavy, more for a max. If the max is moving, due to all the above this is really hard. YOu are often better off just trying to shotty them to death.

    Falcons are only really useful against slow moving, large, close proximity targets.

    buffs i would make to NC maxes;

    allow us to move at normal speeds with aegis shield up. So we can effectively run with it, rather than crawl along.

    Possibly reduce the damage drop a tiny bit (like 5-10%) just so the damage inflicted at 15m is actually useful, atm 10m is really the effective range of scatters and hacksaws (can't speak for the other guns)

    Possibly reduce the reload times a little.

    planetside is an asymmetrical game. I don't have a big issue with the different faction maxes being better or worse at different things. I don't mind that much if the NC max is the worst at mid range and AV but as long as it makes up for it in charging into close range. ATM it is marginally better at doing this than the VS or TR but not enough to make up for their vast superiority at mid to long ranges.
    Last edited by DukeOfChutney; 07-11-2013 at 06:01 PM.

  12. #2892
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    The comets have the same issues as the falcons, convergence and slow velocity. Yes the falcons have it worse when it comes to rate of fire but most of the time when you crash into a room, or defending, to kill of the enemy maxes (which is where comets are typically used) is when they will work just as well. With the falcons you do need friendlies as backup to either finish off or soften up targets for you but they will put the hurt on anything you hit. Especially if SOE ever gets around to fix the velocity issues they have. (100m/s might be too fast but the 50-60 they get is too slow, somewhere around comets 80m/s is probably best).

    Right I thought they had a cooldown thing for the aegis but if it is a free toggle (delay is expected, though i guess zoe could have the same small delay for off/on) but they really could increase the movement speed when shield is up, just prevent sprinting.

    Generally NC needs a new long ranged AV option that can compete with lancers/fractures.

  13. #2893
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dominicus's Avatar
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    The falcons, they pack a punch, thats true, but the reload.... Really, you have to request the other max to go and get a cup of tea so you can reload. Combined with the velocity and hit box they won't hit a walking max, unless you're lucky. On the othe rhand they are brilliant versus locked down maxes.

    I just wish the NC max would return a little bit to it's former glory. Everything within 5m in a frontal cone is concidered dead. Don't stand in that cone. ZOE does provide with the perfect counter to this with the speed. Currently, with AI weapons, even within the 5m range as a max versus max your not ensured a victory, while anything above 10m your sure to loose.

    On the shield, against TR it works allright. You can soak up a lot of damage and you can get close to most of their maxes. Against VS it's a little more troublesome, as a ZOE max just stays out of range and can quiet easilly do so. Besides that, there are the lashers....

    The fun thing is that I suspect that the shield would work the best against NC, due to the high reload time of the weapons you would have a better oppertunity to strike back. Maybe thats why I feel it also works better against the TR...

  14. #2894
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    I'd also be kinda ok with the NC max becoming the killing machine of old. But only so long as we get back our beloved Magrider plus Saron. TR have too many OP toys which is game breaking imho but each faction should have one or two really good things that have cool downs. Note: cooldowns. The striker in its current implementation simply has to go. People with more time and understanding than I have written much on reddit about how the striker is distorting the whole PS2 ecosystem (OP striker -> fewer VS and NC pilots and tankers -> TR dominate infantry fights -> TR gets the 4th faction bonus -> TR gets more certs -> TR has more tricked out players -> [loop from TR dominate infantry fights).
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  15. #2895
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Here's a thing with Falcons, they start at 40ms, go up to 120 ms, have quite high speed acceleration, however, at about 50 or so meters they hit their convergence point and go sideways. Prior, to that, you can actually overshoot arround the max too. Also requires shield to be effective, thus, flak armor from C4, thus more vurnerable to bullets.

    Quote Originally Posted by qaz View Post
    I would just like to mention that both the nc and vs max perform at roughly the same level in terms of KPU, especially if we're looking at q3 and q4 data (i.e., br50 and up). TR maxes lag behind significantly, with mattocks having ~40% kpu advantage over mercies, for example. So, TR maxes do need some work (especially mercies), VS maxes need a slight decrease in effectiveness, and NC maxes could stay just as they are, as they STILL perform extremely well.

    Here's a small block from back in august:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...OU3VzZlE#gid=0

    This is the most comprehensive data dump to date (sept-oct):
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wc&usp=sharing

    I kinda don't want to imagine how NC maxes performed before they were nerfed.

    You really want to go forumside 2 route?

    How about this then, you pull almost twice the ammount of maxes, while NC has to pull them in close quarter encounters to be as effective as you are everywhere?
    Why the hell our lower max ammount and limited use with minor advantage in using it correctly does not perform better KPU wise compared to your max pulled generally everywhere and being a threatened by more stuff and being target to vehicles?
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  16. #2896
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    I did say that a small adjustment to ZOE was needed .... but i DON'T think that it's justified that NC maxes keep their 30-50% advantage in KPU, which is why TR maxes also deserve a buff.

    As for the total kills ... VS maxes are being overused right now, that's all.

  17. #2897
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaKroy View Post
    Isn't it a toggle ability already? No cooldown as far as I know.
    Exept, once it's used up, you need to recharge it, to use it to it's semi full "potential", that's how cooldown works. It has cast timer.
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  18. #2898
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LaKroy's Avatar
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    I'd hate to see the asymmetric balance go, so do you guys have any suggestions on how to make ZOE and the other MAXes balanced without nerfing the former?

    Here are a couple of ideas:
    1) Give NC MAXes more HP, i.e. they become better tanks.
    2) Give the TR MAX anti-infantry guns explosive bullets, i.e. a small splash damage component that should synergise with lock-down for supreme suppressive fire.

  19. #2899
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    +1 to LaKroy's suggestions (particularly for making a proper tank max option).

    I think they could possibly even allow the asymmetry to go further than just how the maxes balance against each other. There are three main faction specific things that cost resources and have cooldowns:

    1. ESFs
    2. MBTs
    3. MAXes

    Why not just build on the existing situation?

    1. ESFs - The mossie is the best here (or is that simply because they have so many pilots on miller?). Seems to have the most effective rocket pods plus decent speed and maneuvrability. TR are supposed to have loads of cheap, fast firing, highly mobile guns/vehicles. This fits that nicely.
    2. MBTs - The Vanguard is best here because the shield makes them virtually untouchable whilst activated. Plus the guns are good and it looks like a proper tank. NC are supposed to be hard hitting, tough guys. This fits nicely too.
    3. MAXes - ZOE is currently the best here. Vanu are supposed to... ummm... no bullet drop? I don't know. Vanu needs clearer identity but I think mobility (strafing tank, fast max) suits Vanu better than TR. They can keep the masses magazines and the dakka dakka.
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  20. #2900
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaKroy View Post
    I'd hate to see the asymmetric balance go, so do you guys have any suggestions on how to make ZOE and the other MAXes balanced without nerfing the former?

    Here are a couple of ideas:
    1) Give NC MAXes more HP, i.e. they become better tanks.
    2) Give the TR MAX anti-infantry guns explosive bullets, i.e. a small splash damage component that should synergise with lock-down for supreme suppressive fire.
    that would be a great recipe to completely destroy the game unless maxes were like vehicles in that they couldn't be revived.

    I like the concept of asymmetric balance too, but it doesn't really work in ps2. the prowler used to be an AI tank and people were not happy with that. if you look at your suggestions, TR would be inherently op again because large mag ai splash weapons are something that would just be better than most other things due to the sheer amount of infantry killing that this would enable.

    in the end, factions are converging with a few minor exceptions (maxes and mbts, but the latter are just not balanced atm).
    Last edited by qaz; 08-11-2013 at 01:39 PM.

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