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  1. #4861
    Network Hub eltdown's Avatar
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    Boffin, bear in mind that the tank projectile changes may well make it harder to AP-snipe Libs.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonkers View Post
    Also concerning pods:
    "They are all around to good. Good at killing infantry and good at killing vehicles."
    WHAT TOOK YOU SO FUCKING LONG? I don't know if making ESFs more of an AI weapons platform is the way to go. But hey. Grats for finally realizing what people have been saying since beta...
    This was my thought as well. Although the worst thing about pods for me is still the crippling framerate drop they cause.

  2. #4862
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    Even if the Mag isn't heavily nerfed, I just don't understand what its role is now. The other tanks are much better defined.

    The Vanguard is a big, slow (although it's top speed is the same as VS) bruiser. It has a defensive shield, good AV, bad AI, heavy armour.

    The Prowler is a bit more mixed. It's the fastest tank, but its special ability anchors it to the ground. That seems counterintuitive to me. Also, the Vulcan/Marauder aren't useful on a tank. However, it has DPS and good AI. It can become basically an artillery battery and is notorious for its farming.

    The Magrider is... what? More mobile? Barely. We strafe. That's literally all we get as a bonus to maneuvering. Turn speed doesn't count, since we have to turn to hit anything. Our speed for turning the tank is not comparable to other tanks turning, it's comparable to other turrets turning. Which is slow.

    More damage/speed/accuracy/range/AI/AV/AA/armour? Nope. Not one of these. We've lost the fact that we are unique in firing while moving.

    Otherwise, the only things we have that are unique or different are downsides/worse abilities. The only two things aren't literal downsides unique to our tank are strafing and Magburner. I'd argue that neither of these traits are as useful as the unique traits of the other tanks, which are much more clearly defined.

    Yeah, it's funny that you can use Magburner to get on top of buildings or onto weird hills, but it's almost never useful. If you get stuck, you explode/get C4'd/get rekt by a Vanguard/Prowler. If you're in the open, you get killed by air, and it's not like you can actually aim down with the turret anyway.

    I don't undervalue the ability to be mobile, and I'm not interested in making the Mag good at everything/outclassing the Van or the Prowler in all situations. What I would like is one, just one situation where I can legitimately say "I'm better off in a Magrider here than any other tank". One specialty. Anything.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boffinboots View Post
    As far as I understand it, the Mag was always better close up because of its manoeuvrability. They're trying to make tanks work at closer ranges, so that's a stealth buff to you. Yes, other tanks are getting increased turning but I would expect the Mag to stay the most manoeuvrable. And if you think 'stabilised turret' is your faction trait then that's really clutching at straws... it's always seemed like an oversight that it wasn't on the other tanks.
    I disagree. Strafing is meaningless at close range, since the other tank can hit you anyway. Strafing is only really useful if you're at long enough range to see incoming fire and dodge it (in which case your turret is nigh-on useless) or you're moving behind cover (which you can't fire over, because of the turret).

    The only reason Mags are used at close range is because between the VPC and the Saron, the average Magrider can only hit targets at close range. Furthermore, the only times the Mag has a good chance is if it can ambush the other guy on the rear armour/if the other guy is 1/2.

    Otherwise, you can dance around as much as you like, a Vanguard is happy to stop and mince you up with no difficulty whatsoever, unless you run for cover. If you do run for cover (which the Magburner is good at), congratulations, you are no longer damaging them and have exposed your rear armour to the enemy.

    As for claiming turret stabilization as a faction trait, I completely agree with you. It's silly that we had to say that was "ours" (and depressing). It would be clutching at straws if it were predominantly VS hanging on to that old line. However, it was never VS who proudly stated that they loved how unique the stabilized turret was. It was NC/TR (in every bloody tank thread) who'd say "b-b-but muh turret stabilization! Your turret can be fired while moving! This is a huge advantage!".

    This would be true if it wasn't a catapult. As it stands, the ability to fire the Mag's turret while moving was the only synergy we had between our weapons/abilities/tank traits.

    If you had the FPC and a Halberd, you could conceivably fire while strafing at medium range and hope that the enemy misses you/you can get alpha burst damage on them and hide behind terrain. This is actually reasonably effective, and it's why every experienced Mag crew ever takes the FPC/Halberd and nothing else.

    However, it's hardly a specialty. There's still nothing I can point to and be happy to use in a Mag when I consider the advantages of a Prowler or a Vanguard.
    Last edited by fish food carl; 07-06-2014 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #4863
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    Very well put fish food carl. All the tank changes do is buff the Prowler and Vanguard even more when the Magrider needed serious attention. A good start would be omni-directional magburn as has been suggested a lot but I think even this is a plaster on the more fundamental question of what the Magrider's distinctive features are meant to be.

  4. #4864
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    YESSSSSSS! Those lib nerfs sound fucking excellent and I do think that every single one of them was long overdue. Did you guys know that the Dalton and Shredder EACH haver higher KPHs (kill/h) than tank HE cannon and higher vKPHs than tank AP cannons? Better defining their roles and limiting effectiveness outside of that role is definitely a great step, imo.

    As for the tank changes ... I'm tentatively positive. I'm hoping that they don't go insane and nerf mag velocities too much (would have preferred a buff for mags and nothing for everyone else), but the goal they have isn't bad. Reducing the ranges at which tanks shell each other is an alright idea. The moving while shooting thing is something that's hard to assess, as is the strafing buff for prowlers and vans. I don't think it'll be too disruptive for us, but we'll have to wait and see how they implement it all.

    @Fish Your mag is the perfect flanker. Get max stealth and start exploding stuff. Also, what makes the mag unique is the mode of movement. By that I don't really mean the hovering, but being able to drive in an 8 pattern while engaging targets. Prowlers and vans will still be way more limited in how they can move during engagements.

  5. #4865
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    @bankrotas: it doesnt matter what I say or do. This is the fucking internet. The only problem is that on this part of the internet there is a rule about not being a bastard to other people, and your tone in this thread and the state of the giraffes one was just generally aggressive.

    I could be as vague about everything as much as I want, doesnt give you the permission to blow up and lose it.

    As for what you actually wanted, no, I didnt understand you wanted me to list the stuff im waiting for. It just seemed to me you just wanted to vent about people requesting new features.

    Ill list them anyway: community ownable facilities, ways of hosting a game that actually reflects on what youre doing and rewards accordling instead of randomly triggering challenges, customisable bases, ie. Something that anchors you to a place as opposed to everything being gone in 10 mnutes again.

    Again, doesnt matter if you like these things, doesnt matter if they will ever happen. Dont be a dick about it, thats the only thing that matters around here.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  6. #4866
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz View Post

    @Fish Your mag is the perfect flanker. Get max stealth and start exploding stuff. Also, what makes the mag unique is the mode of movement. By that I don't really mean the hovering, but being able to drive in an 8 pattern while engaging targets. Prowlers and vans will still be way more limited in how they can move during engagements.
    They will still be more limited, which is nice. I don't mean to be completely down on the Mag. I do love driving one, and it's not like it's massively underpowered. But its design is so fundamentally flawed and strange, with no synergy between its abilities, that I do not understand its role as a combat vehicle when compared to the other tanks.

    Furthermore, we both know that it only becomes good at its only niche (flanking) with massive cert investment into Stealth and the FPC/Halberd combo. At least the Vanguard is actually tough without certing into the shield, and the Prowler has good DPS without certing into the Anchor mode. The Mag is alone in its absurd minimum investment.

    I don't mean to sound whiny, but I just want the Mag to have a more clearly defined body of traits. Traits that are unique, fun, and effective within their specialty. What we have at the moment is such a mashup of design ideas that it comes out as "mediocre". Not terrible, just "OK, mostly". If you're a good Mag pilot, of course you can do well. It rewards smart play as much anything else in this game.

    However, it doesn't really reward inexperienced play as much as the others, IMO. The skill floor is higher.

  7. #4867
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    @Fish With a 2/2 AP config, TTKs are really close to each other. A prowler kills a mag in 7 and a van in 7.5, a van kills in 8 and a mag kills a prowler in 7.5 and a van in 9 seconds. I think this is all fairly balanced. Smart aggressors can get kills and being in a mag makes being a smart aggressor easier than being in vans/prowlers.

    Also, asking for a "clearly defined" trait that's unique and fun is nothing but asking for trouble at the moment. We've both seen what can happen when the devs start going down this route (phaseshift) and i really dont want them to mess with any of the mag's core traits or issues because i dont think anything good will come of it. In that vein, I also think that omni-burner is the most horrible idea ever.

  8. #4868
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    It's clear that SOE, or at least the planetside devs, don't know how to do tanks. They make the most mobile tank have an immobilisation speciality. They make them so it's ridiculously hard to fire on the move (which as I pointed out in my S4T is the *key* defining feature of a tank). They don't have a defined role for them. Etc. etc.

  9. #4869
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    For all the issues with the Magrider, I will say that there are certain RPS members in Magriders who are the tanks I fear the most in game. Effective use of strafe as an aggressive manoeuvre as opposed to dodging projectiles can be very effective.
    Itsbastiat, Dawngate
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  10. #4870
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish food carl View Post
    Added drop and lower speed to tank projectiles. No numbers on this yet, so it's hard to judge, but if the Mag gets any more drop on it, I'm fucking switching to AP-Lightnings. Adjusting your aim 30m above your target for an enemy within 150m is not fun.
    I actually think this sounds pretty awesome. I even hope they will add a lot of drop to the magrider. Think about it, it would mean it becomes an artillery peace. We might be able to consistently lob shots at enemies behind cover.
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  11. #4871
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    For all the issues with the Magrider, I will say that there are certain RPS members in Magriders who are the tanks I fear the most in game.
    Who, pray tell?
    Steam: EsotericReverie | Origin: EsotericReverie | Planetside 2: EsotericReverie | Battle.net: Esoteric#2168

  12. #4872
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I had Cephas in mind when I wrote it, but there are a few of you!
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  13. #4873
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Yeah, I actually do think that RPS as an outfit has a pretty well developed tank game. What we lack in air competence, I think we have in tank capability. It's just a shame that air is so much more powerful than armour...
    Steam: EsotericReverie | Origin: EsotericReverie | Planetside 2: EsotericReverie | Battle.net: Esoteric#2168

  14. #4874
    Lesser Hivemind Node NickWhite's Avatar
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    Planetside 2 - NickTheNegligent // Steam - Nick

  15. #4875
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Uh-oh. It's alive!
    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzCutPsycho
    My interest has been piqued.
    Steam: EsotericReverie | Origin: EsotericReverie | Planetside 2: EsotericReverie | Battle.net: Esoteric#2168

  16. #4876
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cephas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    I had Cephas in mind when I wrote it, but there are a few of you!
    Why thank you! Good to know my mad driving strikes fear into others

  17. #4877
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    Yeh I don't think we need to worry about the mag so much, hell the stabilized gun will help us as well. The mag still suffers from certain terrain when driving and shooting. Also once this goes in they might actually have a look at the mag again and give us more strafespeed etc.

    Looking at the Lib changes again it might not be so bad, I mean it actually sounds like they will improve the damage of Dalton/zephyr/shredder vs armor while nerfing the infantry damage to cement its role as a tank killer instead of a general infantry farmer. However they should look at fixing the noseguns so the spur/vector is viable weapons.

  18. #4878
    Network Hub eltdown's Avatar
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    Their current intent is to nerf the crap out of the Tankbuster to bring it in line with the other guns and then look at it again later: Reddit. That post also has more info on the tank changes as well.

  19. #4879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boffinboots View Post
    As far as I understand it, the Mag was always better close up because of its manoeuvrability.
    Not really. The mag (even with max rival) doesn't strafe fast enough to really give an advantage up close. Meanwhile, the Prowler out DPSes the Mag and the Vanguard is much tougher + has shield. So in a close range fight, both the other two normally come out on top. The mag's weird movement style makes it good for two things - dodging shots at range (which, before the Saron rework, was pretty much the optimal way to Play a mag - get a Saron gunner and hold distance), and flanking. It can cross terrain that the other thanks can't, and can keep it's front armour towards threats as it traverses, so that when it shows up close to that Vanguard, it opens with a volley to the rear.

  20. #4880
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I think you're understating the benefits of strafing in the Magrider. It's a lot easier for the Magrider to move and aim at the same time because it can rotate around a point. What's more, if you're rotating around a point, particularly all other armour, they have to take time to adjust their aim. With the current state of affairs, that means they can't move if they want to fire on you. Either they move out of your line of fire, meaning they can't reliably shoot you and you don't need to worry about being too slow to dodge their fire, or they stay still and fire at you, which makes your hits all but guaranteed, and them incredibly vulnerable to infantry.
    Itsbastiat, Dawngate
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