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  1. #4901
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    Brief summary of the thoughts I posted on reddit, since it's not visible via /r/millerplanetside any more

    I think stoopid's in the wrong here, but I acknowledge I'm going against the grain of RPS opinion (hence why I only really post in the ps2 subforum these days, despite nalano being gone). However, if /u/LoZz27's threat of TKing RTRS members is followed through, I will escalate it until one of us is banned.
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  2. #4902
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    I believe making jokes that could be called racist in a non hurtful way, is a good way to point out the ridiculousness of it, especially when an Irish person would make a joke about all Irish being drunks, or any other kind of stereotype.

    I wont name people, but there is one particular person who will often make jokes that are straight up not funny and there is a re-occurring inner outfit joke that he is the largest comedian in his country. If you did hang about for a while you'd have realised that that person and I have been friends for 9 months, and he doesn't feel in anyway shotdown or hurt when any one in the outfit pokes fun at his awful jokes and is actually encouraged. But I do understand where you are coming from, I've seen videos of people like BuzzCutPsyhco and how he shoots people down, and I personally cannot stand people like that.

    If I joined an outfit and I thought someone was being mean, I'd have spoken to them. I do like to be upfront with people, however I understand all people are not like that.

    I'm happy to be part of an environment where racist things are said, however that doesn't mean I'm happy with racists or bigots. There is a difference, at least I believe so, and I will tell anyone who is racist or bigoted in anyway off.

    I agree that the problem here is that people in our outfit have a different sense of humour than you, which is totally fine. However some people in LYF and I personally agree, that to take such a thing to the whole server, and permanently stain how we are seen by all of Miller, without at least talking to a single member about the issue. There are a lot of people who will now treat me differently simply because one person believed LYF is full of bigots.

    Also, I am not expecting an apology or anything, I believe in forgive and forget, and to go into who's to blame for what is just a bad road to go down. I just want to show you and possibly anyone else to reads this, that we're not bigots or jackasses, and that this was mostly a misunderstanding.

  3. #4903
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    I don't wanna talk about who's in the wrong or anything, I don't see the point. I cannot speak for LoZz and like I said I am not here to show LYF's response, only my own. Chances are LoZz was annoyed that someone was calling him a bigot and a jackass without really knowing him. I will ask people not to team kill anyone, however please understand if someone team kills judge that member for his or her own actions, as I cannot control people. Also I wont try to remove my friend from the outfit if he acts like a jackass. Again this comes from the idea we're a group of friends who can do what they want, and it's not anyone else in the outfit's responsibility to control their behaviour or babysit them.

  4. #4904
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugiPula View Post
    I'm happy to be part of an environment where racist things are said, however that doesn't mean I'm happy with racists or bigots. There is a difference, at least I believe so, and I will tell anyone who is racist or bigoted in anyway off.
    Please explain. I really don't get the difference. My opinion is that by not taking a stand against racist comments you're making them more acceptable which promotes further racist comments and breeds a culture in which racism is ok. So yes, please explain the difference you see.
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  5. #4905
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I'm not likely to judge an entire outfit. To be honest I don't particularly hold opinions on outfits. Just airing a warning that people should not tread on me, because I most definitely do bite. Especially if their name starts with an e and ends in a dwardo123.
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  6. #4906
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    I believe racism is the thought behind the words used, not the words used. You can say in the friendliest manner that people who are black are not allowed in your shop for what ever reason, It doesn't matter what you say, if you're not letting black people in your shop you're a bigot. However If you say people who are black are not allowed in your shop while your best friend in the whole world who is black, is shopping away, you're serving him, and laughing at the ridiculousness of the comment, then you're not a bigot, you're just pointing out how silly it is to be a bigot.

  7. #4907
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugiPula View Post
    Also I wont try to remove my friend from the outfit if he acts like a jackass. Again this comes from the idea we're a group of friends who can do what they want, and it's not anyone else in the outfit's responsibility to control their behaviour or babysit them.
    I think this is a point where there is quite a large difference in mentality between our outfits. At least in my eyes, everyone are responsible for their actions. Meaning that if an outfit member does something that is very clearly not excellent (racism, sexual harrassment, cheating, etc.) that person would get removed not only from my friends list but also the outfit. No matter who they are or how much I like them.

    As an outfit we are a bunch of friends, but we are also a community. We are organised, we have rules, and we function within the larger Miller community. And in order for us to be able to function within this community we also have some regulation on our members. Because at the end of the day, we are made up of our individual members and if someone behaves in a bad way (a non-excellent way in RPS terms) it detracts from us as an outfit.
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  8. #4908
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    A lot of people have complaints about him, including people in the outfit, he's not a bad person, just doesn't take the game seriously in anyway and can be... a little obnoxious. But if you got to know him you'd see he's not a monster and is actually a pretty nice dude.

  9. #4909
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    There is a difference between making fun of racists/nationalists/anti-semites and making racist/nationalist/anti-semite remarks.

    "DONT BE SUCH A FAG/NIGGER/JEW" is definitely a big no no.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  10. #4910
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyTrooper View Post
    Please explain. I really don't get the difference. My opinion is that by not taking a stand against racist comments you're making them more acceptable which promotes further racist comments and breeds a culture in which racism is ok. So yes, please explain the difference you see.
    Quote Originally Posted by SugiPula View Post
    I believe racism is the thought behind the words used, not the words used. You can say in the friendliest manner that people who are black are not allowed in your shop for what ever reason, It doesn't matter what you say, if you're not letting black people in your shop you're a bigot. However If you say people who are black are not allowed in your shop while your best friend in the whole world who is black, is shopping away, you're serving him, and laughing at the ridiculousness of the comment, then you're not a bigot, you're just pointing out how silly it is to be a bigot.
    Well, to expand on this (somewhat different discussion), I would actually argue that what people say (even if their is no "intent" as such) is quite reflective off what they see as acceptable. Most people wouldn't joke about "white people not being allowed into a restaurant" (to continue on the example) even though it's equally absurd, since white as a group represent the majority society. In a way, jokes about specific ethnicities/religions/whatever are almost always about those who are discriminated. There are still remnants (more or less strong) of different types of bigotries, and these "jokes" are indicative of these remnants.
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  11. #4911
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugiPula View Post
    A lot of people have complaints about him, including people in the outfit, he's not a bad person, just doesn't take the game seriously in anyway and can be... a little obnoxious. But if you got to know him you'd see he's not a monster and is actually a pretty nice dude.
    "we know your uncle goes and spits at people he doesnt like, but what are we gonna do, hes our uncle."

    you can single him out and either talk with him, or, you know, not play.
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    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  12. #4912
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I'm not one for changing my opinion on people. He was abusive in one of my open squads like a year ago or whenever it was, I've had him on block ever since and have only ever seen him do bad things. Not interested in getting to know him, if he shoots me or my friends I'll take the day/week/month off from playing for the faction and gun him down.

    Sir Hoc, claiming whites to be the majority is false and evidence of your ethnocentricism
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  13. #4913
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    Personally I feel like everything that needed to be said already has been in the reddit comments. But thanks for checking in with us for whatever reason!

  14. #4914
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    Yes, I agree, there is a large difference between our outfits, however that's a good thing right? Where's the fun if we're all the same? By " At least in my eyes, everyone are responsible for their actions." I'm assuming you mean people are responsible for their outfit's image. I agree with that, but I don't think people should edit their behaviour for the image, which is why I'm here trying to tell you that we're not bigots instead of telling everyone what to do. We have had people in the outfit we've kicked, who again I will not name, for simply being jackasses. There are no strict rules, if the senior members agree they don't like a person they'll remove them, that's it.

    We have had a lot of heat from other outfits/larger names on the server in the past, and the main issue I believe is lack of understanding of how the outfit works. It's not like other outfits and it's fine if you think it's a bad way to conduct an outfit, but It's unfair claim that the people in the outfit are bad for being in an outfit with people who you don't like or behave in a way you disagree with.

  15. #4915
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    Sir Hoc, claiming whites to be the majority is false and evidence of your ethnocentricism
    Majority society as in "in power".

    Also, I'm totally adopting a western European viewpoint in the example (racism against white people is quite common in some other parts of the world). :P
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  16. #4916
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    There is a difference, however I don't believe the remarks are bigoted.

  17. #4917
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    No, the difference is: do you choose to keep a member thats just vile? What does that say about you? What does it say about the other members?

    etc.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  18. #4918
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    It's the progressivist viewpoint of guilt by association. Bullshit in my opinion but it's prevailing thought around RPS.
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  19. #4919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Hoc View Post
    Well, to expand on this (somewhat different discussion), I would actually argue that what people say (even if their is no "intent" as such) is quite reflective off what they see as acceptable. Most people wouldn't joke about "white people not being allowed into a restaurant" (to continue on the example) even though it's equally absurd, since white as a group represent the majority society. In a way, jokes about specific ethnicities/religions/whatever are almost always about those who are discriminated. There are still remnants (more or less strong) of different types of bigotries, and these "jokes" are indicative of these remnants.
    Sure I agree it is reflective of what i find acceptable, I find it acceptable to make jokes about not letting a certain minority or majority of people into a shop, however I don't find it okay to really feel that way. I cannot stand generalisations or bigotry if it is said in a serious manner. I don't think what "most people" agree with is really relevant and I also would argue that the opposite it possibly true. I agree that bigotry still exists infact I live in a country that is so segregated that the people here are starting to have small differences in day to day behaviour, for example where Catholics and Protestants put their fairy liquid.

  20. #4920
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    It's the progressivist viewpoint of guilt by association. Bullshit in my opinion but it's prevailing thought around RPS.
    again, dont have to stay in the outfit if you dont like it :D

    in truth, however, I do recognise and admit that no issue is ever black and white. It is possible to like someone, but dislike their conduct. However, how about trying to do something about it instead of just putting your head into the sand?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

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