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  1. #1641
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    Yes I was there, 200 defenders impossible to take. Which was my entire point. Bringing back SCU Shield generators will not change that one bit. It will still be impossible to take, people grow bored and the cap is removed/taken at 5 in the morning.

    Like I said the problem is that bases in planetside 2 can support any number of spawning troops and that cutting off territory has 0 effect on spawns and combat effectiveness. Especially inside biolabs. Biolabs have always been utterly retarded when it comes to attacking/defending because all the points are inside this tiny dome and extremely close to the spawn room.

    However these problems are not just isolated to biolabs but many smaller bases have the exact same issues, the defenders can spawn an infinite number of players on this tiny little base and if it has any cover from vehicles they become pretty much impossible to cap even though the defenders have been cut off.


    There are a few things that they HAVE to change in PS2 and that are how cutting off affects bases (it should increase spawn timers, remove shields, turn off turrets etc) and how locking a continent works, that is cut off territories should have 0 impact on whether you keep your lock or not. Unless you can keep your warp-gate protected you lost. End of story.

  2. #1642
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    I think they should put in a timer of 20min to have to retake a connected cell if connection is lost otherwise it automatically flips to the majority adjacency, or becomes neutral.
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  3. #1643
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    @wardancer no, we actually managed to advance to the scu gen with a well coordinated and unexpected crash when saurva was the last territory (= loads of people there). It took about 10 mins to get in there properly, but we cleared out all defenders in that area. that's the whole point, really. taking that room sure as hell isn't going to be easy, but once we're in there we can fortify it and holding it for 2 minutes is definitely something that's possible. I really like this system, to be honest, as it gives a clear objective for both sides. It's a challenging fight, but there's also a prospective and tangible reward. To me, this makes biolabs 'ok'.

    Edit: The NTU thing can be implemented regardless. It should, really, but i'm not expecting that to happen any time soon. Even if that was implemented, a fight for the scu is still better than a fight for the biolab though.

  4. #1644
    Lesser Hivemind Node sketchseven's Avatar
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    I think having unconnected territory that has no enemy population should slowly drop back to the neutral point (but remain the colour of the force that holds it, so it's obvious on the map that it needs taking). Then you have attackers who can grab quick caps to roll up unconnected territory that's obviously been abandoned, as they'll only need 2 mins or 3.5 mins to take non-facility sectors.

    For big facility fights I also think some kind of siege mechanic would work well - some behind-the-scenes spawn counter that ticks down once a base is no longer connected, meaning the defenders will slowly lose the ability to spawn at that location. If hundreds of people do try and spawn in, it'll only accelerate that process of running down the spawn tickets, and they'll get chewed up in the fighting (it also makes long protracted bleed-them-dry fights actually worthwhile).

    Give the defenders some way of augmenting that (much as I understand that PS1 had, with any number of acronyms that I can't remember) with supply runs into the base, or maybe an option to air-drop supplies in - you could get all kinds of creative with this, gals that can cert cargo holds in lieu of passenger slots (so you can still have pilot+four gunners), and that allows them to drop supplies of nanites at specific locations, which then adds x number of tickets to the defender's total, or new land vehicle (supply train) that does the same job.

    Also, connect every outpost of a facility to the other outposts of a facility, so you can still cut off those bases, but maybe have it that you need facility + outpost to push out along the new lattice line (so that the facilities aren't just bypassed and ignored). Would work much better with the siege mechanic of course, so cutting off a facility actually makes sense, and quickly reconnecting it makes sense as well.

    Addendum: I think putting the SCU generator back in is a good fix for the moment; dropping the generator is much more achievable in a huge biolab fight than taking and hold three points for the full ten minutes. There's still a lot that could be done to make things even more interesting/cooler though.
    Last edited by sketchseven; 04-06-2013 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #1645
    Network Hub Skhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketchseven View Post
    Give the defenders some way of augmenting that (much as I understand that PS1 had, with any number of acronyms that I can't remember) with supply runs into the base, or maybe an option to air-drop supplies in - you could get all kinds of creative with this, gals that can cert cargo holds in lieu of passenger slots (so you can still have pilot+four gunners), and that allows them to drop supplies of nanites at specific locations, which then adds x number of tickets to the defender's total, or new land vehicle (supply train) that does the same job.
    Basically, you had an ANT which was a small vehicle with a bunch of solar panels, you deployed it at a warpgate to gather energy, when it was full you drove to a base and refilled its generators. If you had a friend with a Lodestar (and maybe a Galaxy? forgot if the ANT fitted in the trunk) he could fly you to a base to go even faster or try to run a blockade. That also meant that if the enemy held the courtyard you couldn't replenish your generators so for all intents and purposes it was a very good siege mechanic (no energy = base goes neutral).

    Dunno why they ditched that. I imagine it was deemed boring and tedious. Those people have probably never driven an ANT across half a continent while dodging rockets from a pursuing reaver, arrived to the target base when the energy level was at 1% and been cheered by everyone for your daring last minute refill. Then again on a general principle I don't understand why they didn't simply go with "take planetside, give it shiny graphics and robust netcode" instead of trying to reinvent the wheel (and badly at that, arguably).

  6. #1646
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    Argh no, scu shields are stupid. They mean you get 3-4 min of fight and then 4 min of sitting around. Also it means ghost cap by infiltrator blowing up the scu before taking points.

    The problem with Saurva is not the lack of scu shield, the problem is that it has harder to reach access points (don't think there are teleport except the one at D) and 4 cap points. So it's hard to reach and you have to have 3 squads defending a point to actually start caping.

    If saurva had the usual biolab configuration both in terms of access points and cap points it wouldn't be a problem at all.

  7. #1647
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    @ksempac: this isn't a saurva specific issue. saurva should actually be the easiest biolab due to its external cap point. biolabs being impossible to take is an issue that's being caused by lattice. lattice ensures that the defenders always have at least one (if not two) satellites that we can't take. On esamir and amerish, biolabs are capturable because we can cut of all external spawns and then camp the shit out of the internal one. lattice prevents this, and i don't think that rashnu or allatum have been taken when they were defended properly either yet.

    also, you only get 3-4 mins of a fight if the defenders are inept. if there's and organised force in there, you'll get an extremely tough fight that's not winnable unless you are well organised and have at least as many people as the defenders (or are smarter). this doesn't magically make it easier to breach that one room, it just makes taking the biolab possible. what this does is that it allows for tactics to once again play a role in taking biolabs. also, i'll take 4 minutes of wait after a good fight over a 2h slugfest we can't win ANY day.

    also, the spawn shields will drop when the scu goes down eventually.
    Last edited by qaz; 04-06-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  8. #1648
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    If that was the case, all biolabs on Indar would be problematic, yet that's not the case. Yes they are meatgrinder, but that's not new and you can capture them. Saurva is the only one that you can't cap at all.

    D is a major PITA because :
    - it's in the area below the biolab where defenders can spawn vehicles and hence have the advantage.
    - it's a tp instead of a jump pad so if you lose it, you're cut off from the biolab.
    - so you have to keep a significant force on it, meaning you already lost part of your assault force.
    It seems nice when you get it the first time with no defender around. But you will understand that it was a trap when you will lose it while defending B

    Also defenders spawn in the biolab, not on the satellites, so having all satellites is not the major point (it's a nice to have, not an obligation).

  9. #1649
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    I do believe that it's an issue for all indar biolabs. We've never lost allatum when we defended it. Similarly, the TR frontline hasn't advanced once beyond Rashnu. In contrast, biolabs on esamir and amerish are getting capped regularly. just last night, we took mani from the nc during an alert. it was a multi-platoon battle, and we still won.

  10. #1650
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz View Post
    @ksempac: this isn't a saurva specific issue. saurva should actually be the easiest biolab due to its external cap point. biolabs being impossible to take is an issue that's being caused by lattice. lattice ensures that the defenders always have at least one (if not two) satellites that we can't take. On esamir and amerish, biolabs are capturable because we can cut of all external spawns and then camp the shit out of the internal one. lattice prevents this, and i don't think that rashnu or allatum have been taken when they were defended properly either yet.

    This is the problem and this is something that is never fixed by SCU shield generators or other pointless crap. Biolabs are horribly designed from a gameplay perspective because they turn into shitty meatgrinders as soon as someone defends them. This is why just putting the SCU shield generator back is a stupid decision because they do that instead of actually trying to work the the SCU system. Which on paper is a much much better idea, simply because it spreads the fighting over a biolab to 3-4 different areas instead of just the one.

    Now if they made all biolabs 4 cap points, put 2 on the ground and 2 in the dome and the old SCU mechanics we would see alot more interesting and dynamic biolab fights that aren't just: Max crash, win or Max crash, fail. Biolabs are infantry fights yes but they really need to open up the area in which to fight. Saurva actually has the best layout for this because of its wall. Attackers will move into the courtyard to secure it and then push into the tower to secure 1 of the points up there to start their cap. Defenders will have to push out to secure their base.

  11. #1651
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Personally I think the main fighting ground of biolabs needs a drastic redesign. There's too many little buildings everywhere, too many high walls and too many corners.

    I'd rather have biolabs look like a farm, openly spaced, throw some walls in there for cover and a few buildings to act as capture points and let people have shoot outs without worrying about tanks or ESF/Libs taking them out.

    I don't think I've enjoyed a biolab fight in quiet some time, probably last time was just after release.
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  12. #1652
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I quite enjoy biolab fights. Except Suarva. If you're being farmed, to me that's a sign that the battle's ended - it's not like that the whole way through. Either the base is well defended, or defence wasn't prepped well and they lost the facility. I'm ok with that, it doesn't need to be balanced as such that throwing bodies at it will turn the tide of the fight. There's a lot of room to manoeuvre in a biolab before the success of the attack/defence, especially if you're light assault. In my eyes, it's the only base where fight occurs between the points of interest (perhaps this is due to their proximity?). In all the other bases going between generators or points feels like going over the top.
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  13. #1653
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    Yeah, biolabs are an interesting infantry-only area. It seems that the devs want to explore this sort of thing further with the giant walls and shields going up on the PTR. The biolab clearly does need a redesign and I'm pretty sure they will be doing just that as well as the quick fix of reintroducing the SCU shield gen.

    I'm not sure how to create more interesting infantry fights in the interior. Perhaps a bit more space/more spread out elements, as JesusPhish suggests, would encourage less meatgrindy MAX squishes. Perhaps they need to move the points of entry (teleporters and spawn room) to allow the attackers to spread out more/create better, more dynamic fights.

  14. #1654
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    The last time I enjoyed a Biolab fight was when Galaxy still had AMS. I sincerely hope we get the NTUs back.

  15. #1655
    Network Hub RushTon's Avatar
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    One of the problems with Biolabs is there are only a limited number of viable strategies to attack so the defenders just need to gear up to defend against so that aside from a max crash there is not really much you can do to change things up when the fight gets to a stale-mate hence fights turn into a horrible meat grinder.
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  16. #1656
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Yes!!! ZOE nerf might come out today, Higby takes a jab at VS and more fun stuff with possible GU10, good morning.


    oh and paaaaaatchnooooootes!

    GU10 Patch Notes
    Alert Updates
    General

    • Taking all facilities of the specified type will win the alert for your empire immediately
    • If time expires without an empire claiming all of the specified facility type, the reward is divided between all empires based on the percentage of the facility type owned when the alert expires.

    New Alert Types
    There are 11 new alerts that focus on taking specific installations across Auraxis or on specific continents:

    • Capture Biolabs (global)
    • Capture Tech Plants (global)
    • Capture Amp Stations (global)
    • Capture Biolabs: Amerish
    • Capture Tech Plants: Amerish
    • Capture Amp Stations: Amerish
    • Capture Biolabs: Indar
    • Capture Tech Plants: Indar
    • Capture Amp Stations: Indar
    • Capture Biolabs: Esamir
    • Capture Amp Stations: Esamir

    New in the Depot
    Added Harasser Windshield Guards and Sunderer Tire Spikes

    Infantry Updates
    Weapon Art
    The following weapons have had their cosmetic look updated:

    • NC: Razor GD-23, Carnage BR, and LA1 Anchor
    • TR: T5 AMC, TAR, MSW-R, T16 Rhino, T32 Bull
    • VS: Ursa and Corvus VA55

    Toggle Zoom
    Toggle zoom is now canceled when any of these actions are taken:

    • Reload
    • Weapon swap
    • Sprint
    • Melee
    • Toss a grenade

    Bug Fixes

    • Optic attachment and iron sight views have been made more consistent across all three empires.
    • Muzzle flashes are now visible for the full render distance of infantry.
    • Shotgun slug ammunition now uses a tracer that is similar to sniper rifles.
    • Tracers are now more visible during the daytime.
    • NS tracers are now white.
    • Reduced acceleration/deceleration speeds of MAX units with Zealot Overdrive active to minimize third person warping.
    • Fixed the missing audio when cocking a bolt action rifle for TR and NC.
    • Ammo clip for the LA1 Anchor should no longer appear to float below the weapon model
    • Updated the Adrenaline Shield and Medic Tool descriptions with correct values. No functionality was changed.
    • Added a speculative fix for an issue where players sometimes accept a revive, but stay stuck on the deploy screen until they are killed again
    • Walking forward and right while holding out C4 will no longer cause issues
    • Added 1st person audio for the TR MAX while in lockdown
    • Lock on rocket launchers will no longer fire “ghost” rockets if you ADS immediately after reloading
    • Night vision fixed for low and medium graphics settings

    Vehicle Updates
    Vehicle Projectiles Now Originate from the Camera
    This should makes shots more reliably line up with the crosshair and reduce issues when the muzzle of the weapon is offset from the camera by a large amount.
    AMS Sunderer Deployment Area Change
    The anti deploy radius for AMS Sunderers has been reduced to 130 meters, so Sunderers are able to deploy more closely to each other than before.
    Flash and Harasser Airborne Control
    Steer left and steer right will now cause the Flash and Harasser to roll slightly when airborne.
    Bug Fixes

    • Fixed an issue where sometimes a vehicle turret’s camera would stutter to the left/right when the vehicle was in motion.
    • Players in the rumble seat of the Harasser should no longer be able to hit the vehicle when firing with the exceptions of the repair tool and physics based projectiles (C-4, grenades, etc)
    • Players in the gunner seat of the Harasser should no longer be able to hit players in the rumble seat when firing
    • The Halberd maximum ammo capacity tooltip has been corrected to match the cert functionality
    • Harasser chassis lights should now display properly when activated
    • Fixed an issue that would cause significant visual issues (black dots) when being fired on by the Scythe
    • Fix for Magrider proximity radar not working correctly
    • Fix for various issues with Lumifiber effects

    UI Updates
    Customizable Squad Colors for Platoons
    Players can now customize their squad colors with a dropdown color picker on each squad name in the platoon management screen

    • This is personal/client-side only – platoon leaders don’t pick everyone’s colors

    Find Facilities Feature on Map
    We have added a search field to the map to locate facility by name.
    Streamlined Kill Notifications
    The text for these notifications was made smaller and will no longer display outfit tags or titles to help mitigate issues with name text being cut off.
    Connected Facility Indicators
    We added HUD indicators to show connected facilities:

    • These share the same states as the facility indicators on the map (capture progress, cap time, ownership, etc)
    • These should go away once you’re within the facility area
    • These only show the detailed information (name, cap time, distance) when you look directly at the indicator

    Enemy Health Bar Change
    Enemies farther than ten meters away will no longer display health bars when spotted; this applies to both infantry and vehicles.
    Misc. UI Changes

    • Current vehicle weapon name is now displayed above the HUD ammo counter
    • Vehicle weapon switch icon now briefly appears when switching weapons or when changing seats
    • Alert icons added to map and warpgate terminal screen for continent-specific alerts
    • Added a notification for when a “next alert” timer starts counting down
    • Added continuous zoom to the minimap
    • Tweaked some HUD text to be more legible during the day
    • A general notification and chat message is sent when a squad or platoon waypoint is added or updated.
    • Waypoint indicators now display region name when highlighting with reticule

    Bug Fixes

    • Fixed issue with capture timers not displaying correctly under certain circumstances
    • MAX bundles will now describe which arm the weapon is for
    • Bundles in the bundle category should now list the contents in the detail pane
    • Fixed an issue where logging out and back in on the same character will leave the XP bonus displaying as 0 for a short time
    • Previewing an item in a bundle should now give the option to preview it on a character or vehicle
    • Q menu controls are no longer inverted if the mouse axis is inverted

    Facility Updates
    Warpgate Roation
    Faction warpgates have been rotated counter-clockwise
    New Ammo Towers Added on Indar
    Ammo Towers were added to the former facility satellites and to the Seabed Listening Post.
    SCU Shields

    • SCU shields on Amp Stations and Tech Plants will now disable when the capture has reached 50% instead of 75%.
    • Bio Lab SCU Shields are once again controlled by the generator and no longer disable based on capture percentage.

    Increased Spawn Options
    We’ve increased the number of available respawn points to include two small outposts instead of one.
    Bug Fixes

    • Addressed some LOD issues at low graphics settings for interior facility structures
    • Fixed a broken garage shield at Allatum
    • Addressed a terminal that was clipping into other objects at Scarred Mesa Skydock
    • Fixed a bug that showed the Saurva Overflow Depot redeployment location at an incorrect spot on the map
    Hear from the spirit-world this mystery:
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    Angel and demon, man and beast art thou,
    Yea, thou art all thou dost appear to be!
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  17. #1657
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    Love the HUD/UI changes.

    "Bio lab : 1 continent" alerts are gonna be... Special. 200+ people in each biolab... Did you say meatgrinder?

  18. #1658
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    My resurrection grenade will love those. Anyway, here's a shitty picture of a recent streamchat: http://i.imgur.com/KWkjQKQ.jpg


    It vaguely gives you an idea about future air balance, changes to the spawning system and a discussion about the VS ZOE Max.

  19. #1659
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    Warpgates rotate CCW? We get the top gate again on Indar?

  20. #1660
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    Funny that buzz gets a personal invite to SoE live. I thought SoE hated him what with the personal warning from Smed and all. Anyway, UI improvements could be really helpful for the CtA.
    WallyTrooper = TrooperWally

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