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  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little man View Post
    I simply brought up your blatant hypocrisy which occurred not 5 posts apart and now you're playing this game. Which only serves to cement my suspicions that you really have nothing to discuss and just want to work on your e-peen.
    Where as my suspicions are you simply don't have a response to what I expressed earlier on: -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    How is it that criticizing an FPS for having the temerity for being linear, yet at the same time celebrating 'games' which are largely lacking in any form of interaction throughout as breakthroughs doesn't strike you as faintly contradictory behaviour and perhaps even represents a double standard at play?

    I'm not against Dear Esther or 30 flights. I own both. I'm ambivalent about whether they really represent a model for future success though given the lack of feedback loop in each, meaning the narrative puzzle that makes up the experience can equally be derived from simply youtubing walkthroughs of either. To my mind interactive media has to be more than about simply pressing the E key to advance the action.

    Now sure one can get into pedantry about linear experiences, and how all games are constrained and therefore linear, but ultimately the vast bulk of the time games operate on the basis of giving you the player some degree of options as to how you choose to arrive at the end and own that experience to some degree. Whether that's through geographical approach, choice of tools, or both. Neither 30 flights or Dear Esther really do in that regard.
    For the love of all things, bring a cogent counterpoint with the next post please. I'm happy to keep posting the same three paragraphs again for the rest of the year until you address them but I doubt everyone else cares to see you skip around with you e-peen hang ups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    When the road is clear, he continues to run forward and is hit with a "Out of the Game Zone!" message then magically blown up. That's unacceptable. There are numerous examples of this bullshittery in the review.
    To tackle that particular point - the "out of bounds" thing (not necessarily in Warfighter but in games in general) is tough to tackle. In the 90s, the geometry simply stopped - you were confined to the walls and it was obvious that nothing at all existed beyond them. Sometimes there'd just be an invisible wall shouting You shall not pass! at you. With cheaper memory and better tech designers can make it look like there's more to the game world than the area you can walk around in, but that makes it harder to make barriers which aren't obviously channeling you to the exit. It's particularly difficult in wide-open field games.

    The "RETURN TO THE COMBAT ZONE!" method isn't one of the better ones but random deaths aren't uncommon. They go back to Far Cry with the black helicopter that would pop out if you got too far off track to kill you, or the leeches in Half Life 2's oceans.



    As for Kadayi - he makes an outstanding point. We're criticising linearity in FPS games (despite even the "golden" era FPS games still being linear) but most indie games are linear as well. Dear Esther is effectively a linear sequence of events for you to discover, moving from point to point. In fact a lot of the more celebrated games are linear experiences, and no backtracking to pick up a key is not non-linear gameplay. You could argue that other games are out to tell a story. Well, believe it or not, so is CoD, which is why it's so heavily scripted.

  4. #84
    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    How's this for a fearless 2013 prediction: The epic battle between Shooop and Kadayi (no specific order intended, not taking sides, LEAVE ME ALONE!) ends in a weird stalemate with both sides considering themselves winners. By now, the discussion is way past dead, and the only purpose is getting the last word.

    Seriously, it's been tremendous fun following your derail, but you're not going anywhere. Can't we all just get along?

    That's just regarding the name-calling and derogatory remarks bit, though. The real discussion has my oh-so-important blessing to continue.

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    How's this for a fearless 2013 prediction: The epic battle between Shooop and Kadayi (no specific order intended, not taking sides, LEAVE ME ALONE!) ends in a weird stalemate with both sides considering themselves winners. By now, the discussion is way past dead, and the only purpose is getting the last word.

    Seriously, it's been tremendous fun following your derail, but you're not going anywhere. Can't we all just get along?

    That's just regarding the name-calling and derogatory remarks bit, though. The real discussion has my oh-so-important blessing to continue.
    And yet another thread derailed by those battles. Those are the real victims. I shed a single manly tear every time this happens.
    Steam(shots), Imgur, Bak'laag, why do you forsake me?

  6. #86
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    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.

    Valve will continue to conquer the world.

    Both safe bets.

  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    As for Kadayi - he makes an outstanding point. We're criticising linearity in FPS games (despite even the "golden" era FPS games still being linear) but most indie games are linear as well. Dear Esther is effectively a linear sequence of events for you to discover, moving from point to point. In fact a lot of the more celebrated games are linear experiences, and no backtracking to pick up a key is not non-linear gameplay. You could argue that other games are out to tell a story. Well, believe it or not, so is CoD, which is why it's so heavily scripted.
    After all the 'not a game' backlash from certain quarters over The Walking Dead, coupled with the Mass Effect debacle as well as Dear Esther & 30 flights I've been ruminating on the whole concept. I think one of the problems is that linearity as a concept is generally applied in quite a broadbrush manner. It's applied equally to game geography, narrative & mechanics in discussion. However it's rare if ever that linearity holds true for all parts of a gaming experience. The geographic & narrative movement in The Walking Dead in certainly linear in terms of where you begin and where you end up (and equally so for Mass Effect 1-3) but the decisions you make and how they shape your experience aren't. There exists variation between them. The thing that generally defines a game I guess for me comes from the fact that two people can play a game and there exist variations in terms of their play experiences. How did you overcome the dragon? How did you get past the guards? Whom did you align with? etc. etc.

    The problem with Dear Esther or 30 Flights is that there really isn't any differential in the play experience. Both are linear when it comes to the narrative delivery, the geography and the mechanics. Certainly Dear Esther mixes it up a bit in terms of the sequence of the audio clips, but ultimately you still end up recieving every piece of the puzzle. Because that's what they really are at the end of the day they're puzzles, rather than games.

    The problem you face with them is that there already exist well established mediums that operate very well when it comes to delivering wholly linear experiences. If an interactive experience can be wholly delivered in it's entirity as equally through the medium of say a film does it really justify being considered a game? Surely what defines the medium of games is the individual interactivity that shapes the experience no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Coming from you...the highest accolate. I will wear it like a badge of honour friend.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 07-01-2013 at 02:17 PM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    If an interactive experience can be wholly delivered in it's entirity as equally through the medium of say a film does it really justify being considered a game? Surely what defines the medium of games is the individual interactivity that shapes the experience no?
    I'd guess (haven't played Dear Esther and am quite uninterested in it) that there is some advantage in having a user-controlled camera in Dear Esther in that if a particular area interests you you can look at it more closely, linger, have a little wander around it, get the exact point of view that you want, and so on. In that sense it's more like installation art than watching a film.

    Of course, I continue to believe that calling games a "medium" is an error and creates arguments where none needs to be present.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  9. #89
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    It's the internet Fanbouy. It's where intelligence does to die and cognitive dissonance, projection, and egos become sentient beings.

    Anyone who wants a real discussion can talk to me like an adult however. As I recall it's about predictions for 2013? Or are we still derailed into Dear Ester?
    Last edited by Shooop; 07-01-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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  10. #90
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I'd guess (haven't played Dear Esther and am quite uninterested in it) that there is some advantage in having a user-controlled camera in Dear Esther in that if a particular area interests you you can look at it more closely, linger, have a little wander around it, get the exact point of view that you want, and so on. In that sense it's more like installation art than watching a film.
    The cave environments are all rather beautiful, but ultimately there's not much relationship between the audio fragments and the spaces. Occasionally they reference parts of the environment, but again nothing that couldn't be conveyed in a film ala Tarkovsky.

    Of course, I continue to believe that calling games a "medium" is an error and creates arguments where none needs to be present.
    Oh I don't discount them as interactive media...I'm just not sure whether I can consider them games Vs puzzles, which is why I'm uneasy with them being in the advent calender. I wouldn't discount experiencing them though.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  11. #91
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    I guess they are in the advent calendar because RPS have chosen a definition of video games that is very broad (I would say too broad). Certainly these types of experience have nothing in common with traditional games, and not too much in common with video games apart from the methods by which you experience them. RPS seem to define video games (well, they deliberately avoid defining them, but you know what I mean) roughly as anything that comes in what would generally be considered a video game engine and has some level of player input, however slight. I think that definition is far too wide and probably ultimately incoherent (I'd say it's similar to arguing that gamebooks are games, therefore books are game engines, therefore all books are games). But that's what they choose and they seem to be reasonably consistent about it.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    It's shit like this...

  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I guess they are in the advent calendar because RPS have chosen a definition of video games that is very broad (I would say too broad). Certainly these types of experience have nothing in common with traditional games, and not too much in common with video games apart from the methods by which you experience them. RPS seem to define video games (well, they deliberately avoid defining them, but you know what I mean) roughly as anything that comes in what would generally be considered a video game engine and has some level of player input, however slight. I think that definition is far too wide and probably ultimately incoherent (I'd say it's similar to arguing that gamebooks are games, therefore books are game engines, therefore all books are games). But that's what they choose and they seem to be reasonably consistent about it.
    Do you not get a sense of it being celebration for celebrations sake? Rather than on actual merit? They're both interesting experiences, but they're both failures as games. Perhaps there's some value in them in terms of 'what not to do' or 'this doesn't work, but could be a starting point for something else' in which case honorable mentions would be more appropriate in truth.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

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    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  14. #94
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    My only prediction for 2013:

    We'll be lucky to have DayZ standalone by 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    You are an enemy of gaming.

  15. #95
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldvvvave View Post
    My only prediction for 2013:

    We'll be lucky to have DayZ standalone by 2015.
    How do you figure? They've got a solid start because they're working off the alpha instead of retooling everything to work in ARMA 3.
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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Do you not get a sense of it being celebration for celebrations sake? Rather than on actual merit? They're both interesting experiences, but they're both failures as games. Perhaps there's some value in them in terms of 'what not to do' or 'this doesn't work, but could be a starting point for something else' in which case honorable mentions would be more appropriate in truth.
    I don't really feel able to comment on whether RPS should consider them "failures as games", given that I haven't played them and I strongly reject the RPS definition of "game". They would certainly qualify as failures as games under my definition of games, but I don't think they're trying to be successful as games under that definition. But I would say that my impression is that they do indeed get some free credit based on the "gamer shame" of some people---those who are worried that their hobby may be a "waste of time" (whatever that means for a hobby!) and see these sorts of games as a kind of self-validation hence giving them more weight than they objectively deserve.

    But then I have a similar impression about a lot of fans of Spec Ops, and I know you really like that game, so I don't want to push this line too hard. It's quite a tricky subject, given that I have not played any of these games, and wouldn't be interested to.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    If the forum was a sitcom then a few threads down the line Kadayi and Shooop would get drunk and after a hilarious set of unlikely occurrences end up having passionate, angry sex.

    Just saying. Keep an eye out!

    ---

    Trite silliness aside when it comes to Dear Esther and such things (I was about to say interactive entertainment but that would cover TV as you have to turn it on! Nevertheless you know the sort of thing I mean) I think they're worth discussing and don't mind them being highlighted or praised. I generally have mixed reactions to them. I thought the Passage was neatly done, I hated the path, I liked Gravity Bone and didn't particularly enjoy 30 Flights of Loving. It's pretty arbitrary and I think they are a lot more dependent on the mood I'm in than I am with games. Kind of in the same way that I have to be in the right frame of mind to enjoy certain books or films.
    Last edited by Lambchops; 07-01-2013 at 07:43 PM.

  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    How do you figure? They've got a solid start because they're working off the alpha instead of retooling everything to work in ARMA 3.
    A better prediction for DayZ will be that it'll have no less than 20 show-stopping bugs on release and run at 20FPS on a hyperadvanced prototype NVIDIA box which I can't be bothered to invent. Also it'll have a massive memory leak which brings the system down after 20 minutes.

  19. #99
    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    A better prediction for DayZ will be that it'll have no less than 20 show-stopping bugs on release and run at 20FPS on a hyperadvanced prototype NVIDIA box which I can't be bothered to invent. Also it'll have a massive memory leak which brings the system down after 20 minutes.
    And running zombies. And assholes.

  20. #100
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    And running zombies. And assholes.
    I'd fit right in then.
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