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08-01-2013, 03:04 AM #101
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
People attach a degree of gravity to the word 'Art' as if it is somehow this ultimate sign of validation of a medium (whether it be music, film, television, games, etc, etc) and that any creative endeavour should aim towards such free expression but need to recognise that it is not the medium thatís important itís whatís being said/conveyed that counts.
This to me is where the beliefs of the Roger Eberts of the world fall down. Certainly one can question the validity of the choice of a medium as to whether itís the appropriate conduit/means of distribution for the message, given that as Mcluhan rightly points out, all mediums possess their own strengths and weaknesses in terms of how we engage with them (thereís a massive difference between reading a book and imagining a story Vs watching a film of the same story for instance). But one canít question the message itself save on it's own terms.
As I said earlier on Iím not convinced that either Dear Esther or 30 flights couldn't work equally well as films, principally because neither of them actually really leverage the very thing that makes games unique experiences from films, namely the interaction and feedback loop between you the player and the game world. For all intents and purposes they are machinima pieces that require you to press the move forward key occasionally to trigger the next sequence. An act no different than turning the page when reading a book.
Thereís really no question in my mind that a game can be Art, the question is only whether a game is the appropriate format through which to express the message one wishes to convey.
But then I have a similar impression about a lot of fans of Spec Ops, and I know you really like that game, so I don't want to push this line too hard. It's quite a tricky subject, given that I have not played any of these games, and wouldn't be interested to.
Again harking back to Mcluhan if the medium is the message in terms of distinctiveness, then whatís the message of games if not about interaction and player choice?
*cue studio audience laughter*
Trite silliness aside when it comes to Dear Esther and such things (I was about to say interactive entertainment but that would cover TV as you have to turn it on! Nevertheless you know the sort of thing I mean) I think they're worth discussing and don't mind them being highlighted or praised. I generally have mixed reactions to them. I thought the Passage was neatly done, I hated the path, I liked Gravity Bone and didn't particularly enjoy 30 Flights of Loving. It's pretty arbitrary and I think they are a lot more dependent on the mood I'm in than I am with games. Kind of in the same way that I have to be in the right frame of mind to enjoy certain books or films.
08-01-2013, 03:10 AM #102
So what's the situation on ARMA 3 and the Greece crisis that shouldn't have been?Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
08-01-2013, 04:43 AM #103
They want to talk about Dear Esther or what is a game or... something, I can't actually recall. There's no malice or anything in that conversation. If you're not interested just stop reading. I find every post by Finicky to be inflammatory trash so I added him to my ignore list, same way I don't read anything by Tixxylixx (or whoever). There's absolutely no need for the snide remarks.
Remember, it is our duty to be excellent to each other, lest the iron fist of tyranny falls upon us. And it'll come for all of us in the night, mark my words, repent before we're all strangled by its long grasp.
08-01-2013, 02:46 PM #104
08-01-2013, 02:59 PM #105
08-01-2013, 03:03 PM #106
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
08-01-2013, 03:20 PM #107
Again if a mod or something decides it's out of line then fine, there's no such thing as free speech, but lately it seems like the RPS community will shout down anybody approaching a topic where there's no consensus. You can't question indies, you can't discuss what is or isn't a game, you can't discuss the merits of art games (except to say "They're great"), you can't discuss whether a Kickstarter project should exist or not... approach any of them and out come the cries of "No it's just going to turn into a pissing match don't even think about discussing it." The fact that you might not reach consensus shouldn't make a discussion off limits, should it? I can only agree that CoD is stale and consoles are doing/not doing Something (trademark?) to PC gaming so many times.
08-01-2013, 03:24 PM #108
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Shut up soldant, all you're doing is creating a pissing contest with this argument.
08-01-2013, 03:26 PM #109
Does anyone know what Dear Esther cost to make? That would certainly be interesting to see.
And Soldant, I think it does happen quite a lot. Too much really. Kadayi and NathanH are fine and I agree that their discussion is perfectly reasonable, but there are a few on RPS now who instead of being able to put forward an opinion simply just bash them with ridiculous statements because they like to provoke and we end up with a little war than sometimes spans into more than one topic and it's a right kick in the balls to deal with. You say you just ignore Finicky, which yes, is the right thing to do, but quite a lot of people get baited by his or someone similars statements, which detracts from the point they were originally trying to debate so with end up with a clash of egos rather than opinions. I'm not asking anyone to agree, and I spend a quite of bit of time on RPS reading discussion that I find interesting, but have no intention of taking part in, yet I find myself more and more having to skip through stuff just so I can find the actual content rather than the mandatory insult that comes before it. I actually have no problem with off-topic discussion, just the general territory it strays into when it occurs.
08-01-2013, 03:35 PM #110
08-01-2013, 11:32 PM #111
ok, kad made me look at this thread, and I think I want to join in.
I just played 30 flights, so its fresh on my mind: I come from the film industry side, so I dont really see the "need" for this to be a game. it feels like a huge quicktime event, not that Im saying I hated it, not at all, but its just a short film where you also move a mouse and hit some keys on the keyboard.
For me, the game that was just on the border of "being a game" was Longest Journey: Dreamfall. I loved that game, but I have to admit, it was very ungamey, mostly because the game elements didnt really have an impact on the actual game. You went, you quickly did them, and then you continued the story. Still one of my favourite games.
I have to admit: Im making a game. My game is on that border of "is it really a game? is it just a story with some slightly interactive bits?". Im very impressed by how Amanita Design have handled the whole "is it a game or isnt it?" with Machinarium and Botanicula, so its definitely very much in that vein, only with storytelling, not "graphical/audible discovery" at its core. I want to see if its possible, and enjoyable, to explore a story, not just a place. At one point in the writing on the concept for my game, I just felt like it was necessary to add the ability to change the story. Not just explore the background, but change whatever you see and hear in the foreground. I think we've nailed it pretty solidly, but I guess we'll see at the end of the development cycle.
Again, not saying these games shouldnt exist either, but people experiment with some weird art stuff without using games, I dont necessarily have to like it. I like games to be interactive, to have elements of games in it, its the only electronic media that can do that, to ignore that on purpose seems a bit.. well, useless. Go make a film if you want, use the Q2 engine, why not, but why add controls, it just boggles the mind.
Id rather go replay Myst for a very raily, fantastic first person story.
09-01-2013, 12:10 AM #112
Oh for fucks sake, Dear Esther's trailer made me throw up. (figuratively)
Bad poetry told over a weirdly lit island in the background?
Whatever they have done, Myst has done ten times better twenty years earlier.
09-01-2013, 12:34 AM #113
I'm perfectly happy to discuss most topics soldant, but only if the other people discussing them aren't being hypocritical, narcissistic, childish twits to me in the process.
Since you're not I'll share my thoughts on Dear Ester with you:
It's a nice interactive experiment that RPS probably thought deserved some attention just because of how unusual it was. I most definitely wouldn't call it a good game though. I probably wouldn't have featured it on of my "best games of the year" list for that year because I really didn't enjoy it, but I can understand why the writers of RPS did.Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
09-01-2013, 02:46 PM #114
dear lord, a proper response from shoop? I AM SHOCKED, SIR.
But from what little I saw of it, I will agree with you. Definitely something I dont ever want to play, no matter how moody it is.
09-01-2013, 06:21 PM #115
I think we're going to see the free-to-play market expand drastically, especially with Nintendo jumping on board. It will be interesting to see how legitimate ip's handle the business model in a way that's acceptable to the average gamer.
10-01-2013, 01:57 AM #116
I tried the demo for about an hour and got hopelessly stuck. I didn't see any reason to go back to it even if I asked for help after that because I'd already seen its entire bag of tricks by then - go to a location and hear a narration, repeat until you've heard enough/gotten tired of just holding the W key.
So yay for the focus on narration in a wholly unorthodox manor, but nay on the "game" itself. Hopefully it's an inspiration for others to follow and offer us more of a game with it.Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
10-01-2013, 09:15 AM #117
Whats the point of the medium then? weve had "games" like these before; they were called CDi.
10-01-2013, 03:50 PM #118
11-01-2013, 12:35 AM #119
But yes absolutely, if your only feature is the way your narrative is delivered then you have failed to actually make a game. Hell even if Spec Ops was entirely forgettable pop-and-shoot gameplay, at least it was gameplay. Simply moving around to trigger scripted narration is somewhat interesting maybe the first 2-3 times but it wears thin very quickly.
With any luck someone will take some inspiration from Ester and do something more with it. The explosive rise of the indie scene just might give us that.Virtual Pilot 3Dô NEVER NOT SCAM!
11-01-2013, 12:43 AM #120
I work with "artists" a lot, but the ones I like most are the ones that actually entertain as well as do new and weird stuff. Thats the trick you see. And if I ever make a game that isnt a) a game and b) interesting/funny; you feel free to tell me and I will listen to your "complaint".