Mashing a Button or two is . . .

[gwathdring]

c) the button you're supposed to use isn't often a button you would use

This one bothers me a lot when it's an action that fits nicely into the non-QTE control scheme. I guess the trouble when it doesn't, though, is that controllers only have so many buttons and it would be silly to dedicate a whole button to a rarely used action even in a PC game--it's either way out of the way and thus bad for QTEs or we're still working with relatively limited real-estate. Then you sort of just have to guess. I mean ... what's the best button for carefully opening a grate in Arkham City/Asylum? The spring/move button doesn't make much sense, but neither do the punch and counter buttons.

[P7uen]

You and Nalano are describing different things there, I think.

Yeah it seems so, to me if you don't have an on-screen prompt then it's not a QTE.

QWOP is not the ultimate QTE game, its the exact opposite. It involves quickness and time and some events, but so did going for a poo before work. If QWOP had on-screen prompts, only allowing for the correct time window to press each button, it would not be interesting at all. This is unlike your cool Batman fighting where you are actually making decisions on timing and/or using skill (I guess, I haven't played it).

So I don't agree, I think PRESS X TO AVOID MISSING DINOSAUR BITE is absolutely different from firing a gun or landing a plane.

Firing a gun has tonnes of variables, you have to move, you have to aim, you might miss, you might be out of ammo, you might get wind or projectile drop, a car might suddenly appear and push you in the guts and you die, etc etc. But... in the game of QTEs, you press X... or you die.

Imagine a pro-gamer tournament of a game that consisted only of QTEs, where 10 of the world's top gamers came together every year to compete in a spectacular draw.

[Heliocentric]

Opening doors in the Arkham games is still a qte, just one with really low risk factors. Slap x or else this door doesn't open.

[Mohorovicic]

So I repeat, why is it there?

It is the best way to represent the player character struggling with something or exterting force continuously, usually trying to overpower something.

(Sorry for an actual level headed comment - is this one of those "let's all foam at the mouth about something we don't get" bonding threads? I can edit my post)

[laneford]

I thought in Arkham City/Asylum if you mash the button too hard he opens things like grates loudly, but do it softly and he does it quietly.

Or did my feverdream mind invent that one?

[c-Row]

(Sorry for an actual level headed comment - is this one of those "let's all foam at the mouth about something we don't get" bonding threads? I can edit my post)

I was genuinely surprised. Also, agreed on the first paragraph.

[Skull]

I thought in Arkham City/Asylum if you mash the button too hard he opens things like grates loudly, but do it softly and he does it quietly.

Or did my feverdream mind invent that one?

No, Batman did it automatically depending on what the situation called for. So stealthy bits he would be quiet for and beating thugs faces in parts he would be noisy. Pretty pointless to do the latter as it took exactly the same amount of time to remove the grate as the former.

[coldvvvave]

People hate QTE's because they are not really meant for KB&M and PC, right? When I had PS3... well, yeah, I hated QTE's even when I had PS3 but that has someething to do with me being PC gamer. I can see how QTE can be done right with a controller though as it has big symmetrical buttons.

[Kajo]

Speaking of QTEs, the best one ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY9NO4GQJRk

(and failing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gWz46t50rU )

[laneford]

No, Batman did it automatically depending on what the situation called for. So stealthy bits he would be quiet for and beating thugs faces in parts he would be noisy. Pretty pointless to do the latter as it took exactly the same amount of time to remove the grate as the former.

Well. I am an idiot. I preferred it my way. (Which was a good idea in my head)

[DWZippy]

I'm tired of games putting button mash QTE's into my cutscenes because I like to take a drink during the cutscenes during the brief ceasefire provided.

This has worked since the early playstation era, so when I was asked to have a knifefight or die during a resident evil 4 cutscene, I was holding my drink and relaxing and I feel like the game broke the age old treaty to stab me in the back. Obviously, now me and QTE's are locked in mortal combat.

It's not strictly the same but I'm also a bit tired of "MASH BUTTONS TO BREAK THIS/TEAR THIS/DO THIS" it's okay in a sword fight but when I'm doing it to break open a grate or tear a missile launcher from the top of a tank, it hurts my hand and generally irritates me every time I have to do it. I avoided international track and field once already, don't force me to play it again in every other game ever.

[gwathdring]

I'm tired of games putting button mash QTE's into my cutscenes because I like to take a drink during the cutscenes during the brief ceasefire provided.

This has worked since the early playstation era, so when I was asked to have a knifefight or die during a resident evil 4 cutscene, I was holding my drink and relaxing and I feel like the game broke the age old treaty to stab me in the back. Obviously, now me and QTE's are locked in mortal combat.

It's not strictly the same but I'm also a bit tired of "MASH BUTTONS TO BREAK THIS/TEAR THIS/DO THIS" it's okay in a sword fight but when I'm doing it to break open a grate or tear a missile launcher from the top of a tank, it hurts my hand and generally irritates me every time I have to do it. I avoided international track and field once already, don't force me to play it again in every other game ever.

I do like cutscenes that server double duty as a nice little rest period. Sit black, watch (hopefully) interesting characters say (hopefully) interesting things ... then back to the shooting/jumping/what-have you.

[strange headache]

Not strictly speaking a QTE, but why does every little action in first person shooters need to have an animation? It is not like opening a door or a vent needs to be a dramatic event every.single.fucking.time. Besides, it often makes me feel dizzy, like putting a go pro cam on a bobble head.

I understand that the developers want to immerse you in their games and let you feel connected to the character. But to be honest, I don't want to feel every single little bump in the road, I don't want to see a hand grabbing the door handle or the light switch or the fuse box every single moment, taking away my controls for a couple of seconds and making the camera spin around like crazy.

Also head bobbing, give me an option to switch it off please. I'm an old man, I don't go on rides anymore.

[gwathdring]

QWOP is not the ultimate QTE game, its the exact opposite. It involves quickness and time and some events, but so did going for a poo before work. If QWOP had on-screen prompts, only allowing for the correct time window to press each button, it would not be interesting at all. This is unlike your cool Batman fighting where you are actually making decisions on timing and/or using skill (I guess, I haven't played it).

QWOP does have button prompts in the upper right and left-hand corners. Tell you what controls you're supposed to use. Pressing the buttons with the wrong rhythm doesn't auto-fail you ... but you fall over fairly quickly. I don't think QWOP is really a QTE like Nalano does, but saying it's the opposite isn't accurate either. QTEs are about rhythm and reaction when they aren't just randomly thrown in for no reason--QWOP isn't really about reaction, but it is certainly about rhythm.

Firing a gun has tonnes of variables, you have to move, you have to aim, you might miss, you might be out of ammo, you might get wind or projectile drop, a car might suddenly appear and push you in the guts and you die, etc etc. But... in the game of QTEs, you press X... or you die.

Bit.Trip.Runner is nothing but QTEs. I think it's a lot of fun. It's damn difficult, too. It's a game of rhythm and response that, in the style of VVVVVV and Dark Souls, expects you to die a lot before you have that one successful run. Instead of button prompts you have a series of obstacles each of which is effectively a button prompt (in a much more explicit way then, say, a Spy is a button prompt for a Sniper in TF2). The binary nature of the game doesn't make it a bad game. You have fewer variables. You're simply honing reaction, memory, and rhythm to a razor precision. That can be really fun and rewarding.

When I said I don't see it as fundmentally different from shooting, I didn't mean moust-click-shooting is a QTE. I meant that I don't understand why a QTE is fundamentally un-shooterlike. Why is a crouch button not fundamentally un-shooterlike? Why is a pause menu not fundamentally un-shooterlike? It's just a generic way of talking about a type of mechanics that can and has been successful in a variety of games both as part of peripheral and core gameplay. Asking whether or not people like QTEs or saying you don't like QTEs is sort of like saying you don't like Pop music or FPS games. Does Portal count? Do the Beattles count? What about Frank Sinatra?

If nothing else think it's a lot more interesting to talk about specific implementations.

Imagine a pro-gamer tournament of a game that consisted only of QTEs, where 10 of the world's top gamers came together every year to compete in a spectacular draw.

I don't really measure my games against how great they would be as a competitive sport.

[Spacewalk]

I still think that Die Hard Arcade has the best QTEs and that was back in, what, 1997? You only ever pressed one button and the game did exactly what was expected of it, two of them would deal you damage if you failed but all the other ones would give you a few more thugs to fight which I don't really see as failure because it gave you a few more opportunities to try out your wrestling moves. Most importantly though you could measure their length in seconds.

[Feldspar]

My grief with QTEs on a controller is that it now expects me to press X, but I have no idea which button is supposed to be X without looking at the controller and probably being too slow. On a keyboard? I know where X is, it is a letter, used to type words like excessive or x-rated and not an anonymous button that in this game means jump, or change weapons, or not do the right thing because I'm still used to playing some other game.

[gwathdring]

Not strictly speaking a QTE, but why does every little action in first person shooters need to have an animation? It is not like opening a door or a vent needs to be a dramatic event every.single.fucking.time. Besides, it often makes me feel dizzy, like putting a go pro cam on a bobble head.

I understand that the developers want to immerse you in their games and let you feel connected to the character. But to be honest, I don't want to feel every single little bump in the road, I don't want to see a hand grabbing the door handle or the light switch or the fuse box every single moment, taking away my controls for a couple of seconds and making the camera spin around like crazy.

Also head bobbing, give me an option to switch it off please. I'm an old man, I don't go on rides anymore.

It's window dressing. Makes the game a little bit shinier. A little bit more detailed. I love looking down and seeing my feet in a game. It makes me feel grounded. For me it's the difference between watching a home video and watching a well directed Hollywood production. A good designer keeps them out of the way, but if your eyes wander you'll notice.

As for taking away the controls, personally I like that. It gives me that many more milliseconds to collect myself, plan my route, unconsciously prepare my mouse-aiming muscles. Some games take it too far for me, though. Arkham City's grates were really annoying. Especially in combat, it seemed like Batman could have just kicked them off the wall more quickly. Would have made a nice new distraction mechanic too. Bash the grate for a quick escape OR to attract attention. There was the slide-y grate maneuver but it only worked from the outside.

[Lambchops]

I of course overstated my case in my opening post for comedic effect and to provoke a bit of discussion (a level headed opening post often doesn't make for an interesting thread!) Casimir Effect actually nailed the game that inspired me to rant a bit (PoP '08 but I didn't want to single it out as other games are equally guilty and apart from one sequence of fights where it is required to win it isn't a frustration as you can't die).

I do of course get button mashing supposed to mimic physical exertion but as others have pointed out it crops up all too often in other areas. I still hold that it's absolutely never fun and the greatest complement I can pay a game that uses it is that I don't really remember that it does as that means that it's not out of place. In my mind it's worst use is when it's an absolutely required part of a boss fight and is pitched at too difficult a level. It's fine if it's pitched at a level of "yup I'm having to work to block this guys sword" but not if it's pitched at the level of "if you want to complete this game you'll have to risk some repetitive strain injury" that's just frustrating and, considering most of the games that use it are just power fantasies anyway, a little bit daft.

Funny people mentioned Arkham Asylum/City and its grates. It's certainly not the worst use of it but it does seem a little out of place. I always felt it would have made more sense if it made you hold a button (and perhaps move the analogue stick to the side) if you wanted to open a grate stealthily and half you mash the button a few times if you wanted to go for the explosive force and kick it in. (EDIT I see this was mentioned in the post directly above, that's what I get for only reading the first page before replying!).

I also think it could actually work really neatly as a mechanic if it was tied to some sort of stamina system. Mash quickly for a burst of effort to perform an action quicker or with more power but at the expense of energy which means you'll run slower, hit weaker etc until you recover over time. Could be quite an interesting challenge to manage your energy or if the game is melee based to assess the enemy and judge the best strategy in terms of risk/reward. Please don't pick this apart I'm typing as I think and haven't thought it through!

[P7uen]

QWOP does have button prompts in the upper right and left-hand corners.

No there aren't, they are always there and light up after you press the button, not before.

Oh lord it's all gone a bit abstract. I don't know what the implementations are in any of the games you're talking about, but do you mean you see a spy and choose to be a sniper, therefore TF2 can be considered a game consisting entirely of QTEs? Well, yes any action that exists in our perception of the universe might involves a stimulus and a response at some point, and therefore can be considered a QTE, then sure, ok.

But no, you're right, specific implementations are more helpful, and something like FC3 is what I'm talking about, which requires no rhythm or learning, and are quite arbitrary. The walk forward QTE was after about 6 hours for me I think, no other similar situation has happened yet.

What about Frank Sinatra?

Yes, I would feel just as awkward being prompted to repeatedly press him for short amounts of time.

I don't really measure my games against how great they would be as a competitive sport.

Yeah, neither do I. Just a bit of a joke and a way of pointing out the difference between an analogue sort of action such as mouse aiming, and a binary button press within a given, say, 1.5 seconds.


One very interesting and vaguely related thing I once chatted about (which is what you might be talking about with bit.trip but I haven't played it), is whether music played on something like Rock Band (which is much closer to the idea of an actual QTE, i.e. an on-screen prompt to press a specific button, followed by a time in which you must press it) is considered the same as playing from the sheet music on a real instrument. Essentially you read a thing which tells you to press that key at that time, then it makes a noise.

Something in me wants to say it's not, but I don't think it is very different, and I also think it's a brilliant way of getting the cacked-of-hand like myself to be more musical.

[Lambchops]

i.e. an on-screen prompt to press a specific button, followed by a time in which you must press it) is considered the same as playing from the sheet music on a real instrument. Essentially you read a thing which tells you to press that key at that time, then it makes a noise.

Something in me wants to say it's not, but I don't think it is very different, and I also think it's a brilliant way of getting the cacked-of-hand like myself to be more musical.

The difference is that sheet music refers to an explicit note or chord for a specific instrument whereas the prompts in Rock Band substitute for a variety of notes and occasionally different instruments (strumming along to keyboard solos on the guitar is a common feature in those games). It is the same idea but it basically cheats by giving the plastic instrument superpowers that a real instrument doesn't have. But that doesn't matter, it's fun and you get to play guitar god which I'd never get to do in real life as I can't play the thing to save myself.