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  1. #61
    Network Hub icemann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ado View Post
    Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night are my favorites simply because there's so much game to them and exploration and atmosphere and it does not depend too much on your platforming skills and tolerance for repeating the same level over and over until you get it right. That has it's own merits mind you, but that's a young man's game I feel and I'm getting too old for that s*it.

    But with that said, I want more games of this type, Metroidvanias or however you want to call them. Pretty please.
    Seconded. Yet to play better platformers than Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of The Night. Absolutely awesome games.

  2. #62
    Activated Node Carra's Avatar
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    On my old sega 8 bit: Asterix & Alex Kid in Miracle World.

    For the newer generation, I loved Limbo. It's such a clever platformer. Braid was great too. More puzzle games than action games but well, I'm a bit older :)

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    A key difference in your list is that the proper, hardcore "platform" games - games about the purity of timing jumps around enemies and obstances - are all in your hate list :)

    Fluff platformers with lots of other stuff going on appears to be your thing - Metroidvania games, games with a high combat content etc. etc.

    I don't really like SMB - but it's probably the best "pure platform game" made since the NES days - it gets the whole thing bang-on, the controls are flawless, the levels are precision made etc. etc.

    Braid is a pure platformer which did something completely original

    The odd one in your list is Escape Goat - it's the one game in there which varies the content and approach enough not to fall into the "it's hard and you'll fail" school of platform games - I love EG and it doesn't seem to belong in your list.

    Unless it's just because your Goat doesn't have a gun...
    Please don't go calling it a hate list. There are elements I dislike about those games, I don't hate them with every grain of my being. I just didn't want to elaborate on the dislikes because this is not the 'your least favourite platformers' thread, but since you asked...

    SMB does platforming controls very well, but it takes the difficulty to an extreme, and not a good one. When you get to the point where you have to traverse platforms with moving spinning blades, enemies and homing missiles using force fields and fans, it becomes physically impossible for me to react fast enough to newly encountered hazards. The only way for me to succeed is to blunder my way through it on pure muscle memory. I guess this is the trance-like gameplay that people praise it for, but I just can't tolerate playing it completely on autopilot.

    I just got fed up with Braid's puzzles after a while. Every time I had to figure out again what the designer wanted me to figure out. And because the designer thinks he's smart, I should be feeling smart for thinking like him, but that's not the case.

    For most of the same reason I stopped playing Escape Goat. I simply had no motivation to do any more puzzles. I tried it again last night and with some fresh eyes they were actually quite simple, but the final room started to rely more on precision platforming and timing, so I'm still not going to bother.

    One more thing: Fly'N and Zineth are definitely action platformers. However, in Fly'N the characters are very powerful compared to other platformers: the combination of double jump and gliding makes precision platforming a walk in the park, so the difficulty lies in effectively switching visions and using your character's special ability, which does require timing and control. Puzzles are maybe 5% of the game's real challenge.
    Last edited by LTK; 07-01-2013 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I don't really like SMB - but it's probably the best "pure platform game" made since the NES days - it gets the whole thing bang-on, the controls are flawless, the levels are precision made etc. etc.
    An endless quest for purity of genre gets annoying, but I think Give Up Robot and VVVVV are pure platformers that are better games than SMB.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Teeworlds is a nice free game. It's like a platformer version of Quake. It's very frantic. High skill ceiling.

    pass

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTK View Post
    Every time I had to figure out again what the designer wanted me to figure out. And because the designer thinks he's smart, I should be feeling smart for thinking like him, but that's not the case.
    For games, music, written fiction and movies I always found it's more useful to try and forget about the author and focus on the output.
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  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    For games, music, written fiction and movies I always found it's more useful to try and forget about the author and focus on the output.
    That'd be easier if I hadn't read this. Regardless, it's something that bugs me about a lot of puzzle games. Spacechem basically ruined them for me.

  8. #68
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    If you're a fan of turn based strategy/tactics games I recommend Unity of Command it is a really solid operational level game that emphasizes supply lines over pummeling the enemy. Definitely a slow thinking game.

    Also available on Steam and comes with a demo.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    An endless quest for purity of genre gets annoying, but I think Give Up Robot and VVVVV are pure platformers that are better games than SMB.
    I've not played Give-Up Robot but I think SMB > VVVVV because

    a - it's just hard, it's not ridiculously and punishingly hard for the hell of it (which VVVVV is). SMB makes you quit out of lack of talent - VVVVV makes you quit in disgust when you realise the designer just wanted to take the piss.

    b - SMB is modern and sharp and nice and doesn't just use blocky graphics for the hell of it - I find that whole thing tiresome.

  10. #70
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    Also - EG is the least 'twitch' platform I can think of - with the poss exception of the last level it's more about brain than reactions!?

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTK View Post
    That'd be easier if I hadn't read this.
    I don't play well the role of the optimist, but I think he just wanted the game to be really played, and enjoyed. It makes sense if you believe what he says in IG:TM is at least tangentially true. These days, it's just so easy to give up without even trying, spam one of the myriad walkthroughs/let's play, see whatever there is too see, and move on (I'm guilty of this myself, although not for Braid specifically).

    edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    VVVVV makes you quit in disgust when you realise the designer just wanted to take the piss.
    Some levels in VVVVVV are a caricature of difficulty. Key to enjoying that game for me was just accepting the game's ridiculously hard in a way that is meant to make me laugh about it - not ragequit.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    b - SMB is modern and sharp and nice and doesn't just use blocky graphics for the hell of it - I find that whole thing tiresome.
    IIRC Cavanagh made the graphics for VVVVVV himself and kept stuff as simple as possible because he was not really a good artist. That might not be the end of the story, but it makes sense.
    Last edited by alms; 07-01-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    I don't play well the role of the optimist, but I think he just wanted the game to be really played, and enjoyed. It makes sense if you believe what he says in IG:TM is at least tangentially true. These days, it's just so easy to give up without even trying, spam one of the myriad walkthroughs/let's play, see whatever there is too see, and move on (I'm guilty of this myself, although not for Braid specifically).
    You know, I honestly don't see anything wrong with that. Sure, if you just watch the entire process of playing a puzzle game on a video, you're going to get an inferior experience compared to going out and learning how to play and progress through the game. But if you've reached a skill ceiling, or you stop enjoying the gameplay, there's no shame in putting it down and finding a video for any bits of the game that are still worth watching. It's simply a waste of time to play a game you no longer enjoy. Besides, when you've put some time into it, your mirror neurons will make you feel like you did it yourself anyway. ;)

    I did finish Braid all by myself, but I quit Psychonauts and youtube'd everything from the Meat Circus onwards. I don't recall finishing Super Meat Boy either, but I never thought there was anything interesting at the end anyway. I watched someone else defeat Ballos in Cave Story+, after having gotten there (and died) myself, because boss fights with more than three stages can go to hell. Plus, there are a handful of games where I looked up the alternate endings after finishing them. Hell, it's not like we have a moral obligation to '100%' every game we buy.

  13. #73
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    You know, I honestly don't see anything wrong with that. Sure, if you just watch the entire process of playing a puzzle game on a video, you're going to get an inferior experience compared to going out and learning how to play and progress through the game. But if you've reached a skill ceiling, or you stop enjoying the gameplay, there's no shame in putting it down and finding a video for any bits of the game that are still worth watching.
    Well, I think there's something wrong with that. I think there's something wrong with the game.

    But on the topic of platformers, my favourites are probably ones most others don't love, or don't lump neatly in platformer. Jak & Daxter the first. Beyond Good and Evil.

    Though I admit I had a soft spot for Sonic the Hedgehog when it came out, I can't enjoy it that much now. Too much memorization.

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I love EG and it doesn't seem to belong in your list.
    I completed the game now, and I see I haven't been entirely fair to it. The levels I'd gotten stuck at actually had very simple solutions. Even the final 10 rooms, in fact. Although room 9 was rather tricky. The few rooms that were overly dependent on timing left a bad taste in my mouth, but on the whole it's actually a very competent puzzle platformer. That's it. It creates some decent puzzles with a few interesting mechanics, but for the rest it's quite bare-bones. I have the feeling it might be constrained by the size of its levels. There's not a lot that can happen in 23x14 squares.

    I kind of feel the same way about Offspring Fling!, which was not as difficult, but did offer a lot more feedback about the player's performance. I completed that one in a day, and saw no reason to go back to it afterwards. Ultimately, they're both forgettable.

    Wait, why does Escape Goat tell me I've completed 99% when all 65 rooms are cleared?

  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mashakos's Avatar
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    If you get Dolphin and PCSX2, you will pretty much cover all your platforming needs on the PC. Wii titles are a bit expensive, but I'm sure PS2 games are dead cheap nowadays.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashakos View Post
    If you get Dolphin and PCSX2, you will pretty much cover all your platforming needs on the PC. Wii titles are a bit expensive, but I'm sure PS2 games are dead cheap nowadays.
    <offtopic>
    I'm a little queasy with just downloading stuff, but at the same time I really detest having to rummage around in used sales. Can't these vendors start just selling their products for download on PC?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    I've not played Give-Up Robot but I think SMB > VVVVV because

    a - it's just hard, it's not ridiculously and punishingly hard for the hell of it (which VVVVV is). SMB makes you quit out of lack of talent - VVVVV makes you quit in disgust when you realise the designer just wanted to take the piss.

    b - SMB is modern and sharp and nice and doesn't just use blocky graphics for the hell of it - I find that whole thing tiresome.
    There's a critical difference between SMB and VVVVV in difficulty though. The most difficult parts in VVVVV are completely optional. It's not fair to complain about a challenge you have to go out of your way to get. Sure you might not get the extra secret ending, but the game doesn't arrest your progress with needless difficulty. SMB does.

    VVVVV uses programmer graphics for a reason, it's a one man band. Beyond that they fit the setting and the atmosphere. SMB's graphics were the best that a team could come up with, and they're purposefully ugly. It's not like either look like Trine.

  18. #78
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTK View Post
    Hell, it's not like we have a moral obligation to '100%' every game we buy.
    Wait, where did that come from? Blow was obviously frustrated with people looking at the puzzle for five minutes then saying "too hard", who subsequently proceeded to slag off the game online "it's pretentious", "story sucks", etc. Maybe they should have kept Bloopi, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by LTK View Post
    Sure, if you just watch the entire process of playing a puzzle game on a video, you're going to get an inferior experience compared to going out and learning how to play and progress through the game.
    Huge understatement.
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  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Trines and Guardian of Light are a sort of platform evolution that are so much more fun to play than stuff like Alex the Kid and Sonic were in the olden times of my youth. Looking forward to playing Oranges, Mark of the Ninja and Generations when I do.

    Psychonauts is an incredible game but I look back at it as more of a genre mashup than anything really. The platform parts (MEAT CIRCUS) are the worst by far.
    Last edited by sonson; 08-01-2013 at 04:17 PM.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    Trines and Guardian of Light are a sort of platform evolution that are so much more fun to play than stuff like Alex the Kid and Sonic were in the olden times of my youth. Looking forward to playing Oranges, Mark of the Ninja and Generations when I do.

    Psychonauts is an incredible game but I look back at it as more of a genre mashup than anything really. The platform parts (MEAT CIRCUS) are the worst by far.
    I found that most of the platform parts of psychonauts could be broken through injudicious use of levitate, so it didn't trouble me too much. I think the real problem with the meat circus was that it was really, really long in a game that normally avoided long levels.

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