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Thread: WvW happenings

  1. #541
    Lesser Hivemind Node Krathor's Avatar
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    It's all about initiative yo. That cross-borderlands channel exists for a reason. Get a few people in there and more will come.

    Timing matters too. If I wanted to make a name for myself as a commander and had the time for it, I'd be on at 7PM every night - an hour before primetime. Catch those guilds before their official 'roaming events' start (usually at 8PM).
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  2. #542
    Lesser Hivemind Node Tweetiti's Avatar
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    Today I received an arenanet email with a WvW booster because I'm quite active in WvW which is hillarious since I havne't been playing there for over a month! Aside form this I need to get back into it but it seems it always happen when I have other plans
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  3. #543
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Everybody got that email I think. Gotta promote your gemstore stuff, yo.

  4. #544
    Network Hub Karuji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krathor View Post
    It's all about initiative yo. That cross-borderlands channel exists for a reason. Get a few people in there and more will come.

    Timing matters too. If I wanted to make a name for myself as a commander and had the time for it, I'd be on at 7PM every night - an hour before primetime. Catch those guilds before their official 'roaming events' start (usually at 8PM).
    This is kinda exactly what I was thinking. Though I have a second part to it which is the organization of an open WvW night (basically x-core). It would allow guilds to stick to being together, but would allow an open branch of communication. between people on a BL and such. And if the guilds yet used to working together and with the community then they might just decide to get out of their channels more often.

    I know this is kinda ironic given that I generally run tagless and on our own mumble, but that will change soon. Also you don't have to be on every night duke: I can cover once a week internet connection permitting.

    ---

    Also a big shout out to everyone who came to WvW last night, I had a butt tonne o' fun and that is considering I am rusty as all hell. I think I've finally got this commanding thing down so, internet connectivity permitting, I'll go back to running with my hat on and use that community mumble thing.

    Unfortunately I am going out tonight so no commanding from me tonight :<

  5. #545
    Lesser Hivemind Node Krathor's Avatar
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    Yeah. My only problem is that WvW community events are good, but generally don't change a whole lot. Don't get me wrong - they can be a shit tonne of fun if you get everyone in the same channel and on the same map, but that doesn't stop people from splitting off into their own guild channels on a normal day.

    Buuuuuut I'm still torn as to whether or not that's actually a huge issue that needs changing. The reoccurring problems happen on things like reset - when we often have about three big guild groups roaming around on our own Borderlands but there's not a commander tag in sight. This means we are always pretty guaranteed to lose most of the stuff on our map about an hour in.

    On the other hand, I've been a commander on maps where up to two other guild groups have been around and although we haven't been in the same Mumble channel, we have communicated via text chat to pull off some amazing successes. [RAGE], [MM] and even [HT] have been there for me when I've called on them. And something inside of me finds it outright awesome when a commander-led zerg forms a disorganised defence, only to be saved at the last second by an organised guild group who then go charging off into the night until you need to call on them again. Reminds me of using ring powers in Battle for Middle Earth.

    And oh yes - I'm in no way saying I'm going to command on a daily basis; I think my time of WvW every 18 hours has passed. However, if I was an aspiring commander wanting to form consistent community cohesion, that's the sort of thing I'd do.
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  6. #546
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jha4ceb's Avatar
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    Just been watching the live stream with the sneak preview of the new WvW mechanic. It's called 'Bloodlust in the Borderlands'. THere are five capture points around the lake area, and it seems that 'bloodlust' will be bestowed on any server that can capture more than three at a time. This seems promising, since it looks like it'll be very easy to capture them even from really zergy servers -- you can't have a blob in five places at once.

    There wasn't very much information given in the video beyond that, though.
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  7. #547
    Network Hub sendmark's Avatar
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    As organised guild group you need to play in own channel if you're playing serious, as it's all about calling movement, banners, combo fields and focused damage. There's not much chatting during proper wvw guild raid, you want everyone to be focused and 90% of voice comm is from raid leader.

    It's also the main part of the challenge and fun of guild group to fight against similar numbered guilds, or fighting outnumbered vs enemy zerg. There's not much fun in running with zerg to trample over enemy through weight of numbers. Saying that pretty much all Gunnars guilds will come help an objective or zerg if asked and not busy fighting somewhere else.

    It all boils down to people doing what they find fun or satisfying from the game. I know some people like having a big group on voice comms to chat with and/or playing for objectives, there's nothing wrong with that, but there also people who like to play for pvp and only want to hear related info or play quiet.
    Last edited by sendmark; 23-08-2013 at 11:02 PM.

  8. #548
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Of course there is nothing wrong with having different people liking different things, sendmark. I think most people here prefer organised group play over (sometimes not so) mindless zerging. As Quine has mentioned the thing that is lacking at the moment is further organisation across commanders or guild "raids". Sure, guilds will help you out if Bay is under attack or whatever, but we don't have commanders coordinate their attacks across borderlands or even on one given map. That's mostly due to the current mumble channel architecture I believe, as I have seen how the PlanetSide2 people successfully pull off amazing things with cross-group communication, so stuff like that does work.

  9. #549
    Network Hub sendmark's Avatar
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    Well I'd agree Gunnars could certainly use a public schedule like Piken - there for each day of the week they assign guilds to borderlands, so everyone knows where to go and where they should be. Although one issue with that in most of our matchups is lack of enemies, or rather guild groups of enemies, people like to move around to catch up with the good fights. People don't want to get stuck sieging the same place, chasing after small groups if the map is underpopulated, or fighting the same blob over and over when there are move even fights in another map.

    On map communication. I guess best way is for guild raid leader to accounce in map who is commanding and when leaving - some guilds don't do that, but some do. Fab certainly always has people on 'PR', ie calling out where guild is going in map and when leaving so people know who to whisper with call for help. Generally the guilds that don't are ones who have no interest in engaging with community anyway tbh, on teamspeak and do their own thing.

  10. #550
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    Bleh- stupid work has been keeping me away from doing much of anything recently.

    Anyway- I'd say what we used to have, and are lacking now, is a critical mass of people on the same channel to respond as a collective to new threats and keep everyone informed. We used to have this and it meant you could generally rely on 20+ skilled players reporting activity and grouping up when there was a problem and was very effective even if there wasn't a commander on the map.

    Now what we tend to have is a few people in each guild channel an very few in the general channels, unless there's a guild raid or group event kicking off which means we lose a lot of the organisational strength an 'overflow' channel of loose players gave us. I think once you have a critical mass of players in a general channel it will attract more people online looking for a fight, but we went below that some months ago.

    I'm not sure commanders are that necessary most of the time to be honest. If there's good communication across the map (something that happens a lot in EB surprisingly) then players can self-organise very effectively. If you've got a lot of newer players they're more useful, and if the map has large enemy zergs rampaging around then I think *everyone* should be prepared to group under them and fight together as that's how the gameplay is designed, and I'd include most of the WVW guilds in that.

    I can understand people not wanting to fight in massive battles lots of good reasons, but ultimately you're fighting for your server and if we're getting repeatedly rolled by a larger force then it's time to take one for the team and help out, otherwise you're just free-riding on GH being the rank it is and giving you the guilds you want to fight. In my opinion it's little better than those people that just zerg around in karma trains and never repair or build stuff.

    There's a problem now of us doing well at reset and the place becoming deserted after a couple of hours when the guild raids end- I think there is a shared calendar of events on the GH community site which hopefully will be used to even things out a bit more. If people were more willing to get onto shared channels outside guild events we'd have a much more stable and effective (and friendly) community force.

    Of course the happy medium would be guilds working together under some form of nominated map/world commander who can try and send forces where required to get us the best score, but I can't see guilds willingly let someone else direct their movements, sadly. It's also ironic that server events like the heavy nights bring a ton of people into a single channel and it all works well and is a lot of fun, but doing that outside an event is filthy blobbing up and leads to no-skill gameplay.

    The TL;DR version is that GvG has different objectives to WvW and I'd prefer the latter myself.
    Last edited by Quine; 24-08-2013 at 10:17 PM.

  11. #551
    Network Hub sendmark's Avatar
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    I would agree that outside of raid times would be good for people to group up in community channels where possible, although tbh even then outside of raid times a lot of people like to roam in small groups and look for smallscale fights. Hence also why they spread into separate channels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quine View Post
    I can understand people not wanting to fight in massive battles lots of good reasons, but ultimately you're fighting for your server and if we're getting repeatedly rolled by a larger force then it's time to take one for the team and help out, otherwise you're just free-riding on GH being the rank it is and giving you the guilds you want to fight. In my opinion it's little better than those people that just zerg around in karma trains and never repair or build stuff.
    Well I would disagree with this very strongly. First of all it's the WvW guilds who do a huge amount of the point gain, even if we disregard the helping to cap and defend things, purely by engaging larger or organised groups of enemy in open field helps enormously in taking the pressure off objectives. It's how we destroyed Ranik and Underworld in particular. Although against blob servers like Abaddon's a bit of grouping up is fine, nobody is going to keep doing something that is boring, or with lag often unplayable. A oneoff server event is different, although even then the uptake from most regular WvW guilds is pretty low.

    There is no separation between GvG and WvW, they are part of the same game. Although that doesn't mean playing in one means you need to drop anything for the other. The objective is to have fun, the divison of players into servers and the points system is totally arbitrary and there to provide a rough direction towards fun, not to be the be all and end all.

    As a side note, personally I've always avoided the community channel as I find some of the attitudes on there to be pretty poor. There are a few egos on there and a few moaners. Also very little in the way of actual fight discussion. I also find one reason BL map chat isn't great, is that some Mumble regulars decided it was a wise idea to deride it and people who use it as a campaign to get more people to use Mumble. End result is borderland map chat declined in use, and with no uptake in mumble as people don't want to play a game while listening to the moaners/ramblers.

    It will be the same story if people decide to start blaming guilds for losing, as Svartacus in particular tried to do at certain points - the guilds will disregard the community or leave, nobody will leave guilds to join the community (who wants to play with moaners?) and the server dies off.
    Last edited by sendmark; 24-08-2013 at 11:11 PM.

  12. #552
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    I certainly don't want to deride the efforts of the more serious/organised WvW guilds on our server- it's great that they're there- but given the way the scoring system works it looks more like the offpeak players- mornings in particular- have a far greater effect than peaktime players. The brave individuals and guild groups that fight in the mornings and daytime have a huge effect on our score compared to guilds clashing for a few hours at peak time.

    The whole concept of the 'World' or server seems to be taking a backseat to the guild stuff now. GvG and WvW have different objectives and Arenanet have never managed to resolve this.

  13. #553
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Every time I read "GvG" in a GW2/WvW context I feel a small pain inside. Two groups of players beating on each other while taking away server space from other players interested in WvW has nothing to do with what GvG was in the old game. I just don't understand why Anet decided to dedicate so few resources to PvP, which was a huge aspect of what made GW1 a success, and haven't managed to do anything about additional game modes.

  14. #554
    Network Hub Karuji's Avatar
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    sendmark I think you are on a slightly different track to what our underlying concern is. The cohesion of the server as a whole is a rather important thing. Guilds being in their channels during prime time is fine, but prime time is what 2, 3, 4 hours? The server has much more time where things are going on.

    Imagine, if you will, a rather new player decided to try out WvW on GH, it's a friday and they choose their own borderland since that's kinda seems like a good place to start. They speak to the instructor in the citadel, and have some very vague idea. They hear in map chat "zerg at vale need help" they really have no idea where vale is and spend 2 minutes staring at the map before they find a place called 'Bluevale' and decide that they should head there.

    On the way to vale our newbie runs into an enemy zerg who eats them and now they have to respawn (ouch repair bill) but they get up and decide to try and get to this bluevale place. Second time they manage to make it across the map, but now it is under enemy control, they die and more repairs :<

    They really have no idea what is going, and are likely to not come back to WvW again, which is really sad. But if there was a commander who was giving instruction to people on the map then they might have had a much better time. And they could become and excellent WvW player.

    Without experienced WvW players interacting with the community how can the community grow? 2 months ago we didn't have [Rage] now we do, one year ago we had [KISS] now we don't. Guilds are kinda transient they come and go but the server is still there. And the guilds depend on the server, those 5 guys who do a 3am-8am tower and keep guarding can pull more score than what we do in prime time.

    Ensuring that the community in general is happy is good for guild and every player in the community. Enabling new players to have fun means that we can continue to grow. Part of that is that if you're not in prime time and need to have tight organization going into a channel with a strong personality so a new player doesn't be mislead by what could be very bad information.

    If I want to make things more fun for my guild why shouldn't I want to make things for fun for my server?

  15. #555
    Network Hub sendmark's Avatar
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    You're raising slightly different points here. although again I cannot agree with them:

    Lack of instruction on map chap is exactly what the big push for community mumble use ended up damaging. People in community mumble actively ignoring or disparaging map chat as 'you should join and use community mumble'. Also guild members I know are perfectly happy to give advice and communicate there, certainly no less than anyone else. To blame guilds for lack of map chat is just not accurate.

    Now you could say guilds in separate channels means less help on mumble, however that doesn't stop people requiring help from using map chat, using the Gunnars community site, using the Anet forums or joining a wvw guild themselves. Mumble is not the be all and end all.

    As for lack of commander tags - again no reason why this has to rest with a wvw guild, anyone can buy a tag and use it. If there are people who worry about new players not having a tag to follow, why not do something about it? The irony is 90% of the time I see public tags these days, it is actually from a WvW guild player, not a community mumbler. I should also point out that you tend not to get many people with commander tags in serious WvW guilds as it's a lot harder to afford it, as so much gold has to go towards having the right meta gear, max consumables and superior siege to be as effective as possible, also your gold gain is so much lower compared to farming pve events.

    Also in WvW guild you cannot carry new players easily, due to the revive system. So many fights are turned by who gets the first rally. It does not do a new player any good to end up the cause of a loss. Far better for them to pick up the ropes running with a pug / karma train or solo to figure everything out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karuji View Post
    Without experienced WvW players interacting with the community how can the community grow? 2 months ago we didn't have [Rage] now we do, one year ago we had [KISS] now we don't. Guilds are kinda transient they come and go but the server is still there. And the guilds depend on the server, those 5 guys who do a 3am-8am tower and keep guarding can pull more score than what we do in prime time.

    Ensuring that the community in general is happy is good for guild and every player in the community. Enabling new players to have fun means that we can continue to grow. Part of that is that if you're not in prime time and need to have tight organization going into a channel with a strong personality so a new player doesn't be mislead by what could be very bad information.

    If I want to make things more fun for my guild why shouldn't I want to make things for fun for my server?
    Actually Gunnars always had RAGE, it was just called SOE before, also most of the players there have been on Gunnars since release

    Ensuring the community is happy is certainly necessary -however that includes also people not attempting to blame guilds for things they are not responsible for or trying to stop people from playing in the way they find fun. This does far more damage to a community than having guilds in their own mumble channels - and to be honest we should be grateful so many guilds have adopted the community mumble when there are so many alternatives like TeamSpeak etc.

    As for offpeak- it's definitely important, however it's not accurate to say the guilds are not relevant there - again 90% of the work done offpeak is actually by people who are also in wvw guilds and using the work done in primetime to secure or defend objectives. This matchup we've held a waypointed Bay in Arborstone (and at times their Garrison) almost entirely due to the work of TEO and it's members who took it in primetime and held it in offpeak. If you're under the impression that somehow wvw guild players only show up for primetime, you are very much wrong. Also so much of a server's morale and fighting ability comes from the primetime fights, as we learnt when XAOC were here. No good doing upgrades or offpeak work if prime time is one succession of losses after another.
    Last edited by sendmark; 25-08-2013 at 09:50 PM.

  16. #556
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    I was in the cross-server channel on Friday and I foiund it very frustrating tbh. There was a lot of idle chatter, which is fine, socialising is fun, as long as there's also some actual game talk. I'm not anti-social, I enjoy chatting to guildies etc, but the problem was whenever anyone tried to give any actual instruction on where to go and what to do people just kept TALKING OVER HIM! There was even chatter during the fights, when people should have been keeping quiet so the leader can give movement instructions and call for the use of fields and revives. That, combined with the fact that the group stayed in our own BL for over 2 hours evey though it was COMPLETELY GREEN makes me think that the reason for the cross-server channel isn't there for giving instruction to newbies at all, it's for socialising. Nobody was paying any attention to map chat, nobody was responding to calls for help from other maps - the only time the channel came alive and it looked like people were focussing on actual wvw was when a massive invader group came in and someone went and called Gwynn and his group from another BL to come and help.

    Anyway, I don't see how you can expect the wvw guilds to hang out in there - I'm not a hardcore wvw player in any way and even I find the chattiness and lack of focus of that channel infuriating! For people who actually want to play seriously it would probably be so bad it'd make them chew through their keyboard!

    If you want more engagement with the casual players then you should put your tag on and talk to them in map chat. Have the community mumble's server details in your clipboard and paste them into map chat once every 5' or so, so anyone who doesn't know about it can join, but don't expect them to - not everyone has mumble or knows what it is and very few people will stop playing so they can spend 10' installing it and figurting out how it works, so continuous use of map chat is necessary.

  17. #557
    Lesser Hivemind Node hawksbane's Avatar
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    while I agree with your general sentiment here, I have to take issue with some of your points

    Quote Originally Posted by sendmark View Post
    I should also point out that you tend not to get many people with commander tags in serious WvW guilds as it's a lot harder to afford it
    I honestly don't know how you can claim this in a week when ~15 people from RAGE paid gems to move servers for a week. I'm sure you know full well that there are plenty of people in the community with commander tags and you only need 4 up at any one time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sendmark View Post
    Also in WvW guild you cannot carry new players easily, due to the revive system. So many fights are turned by who gets the first rally. It does not do a new player any good to end up the cause of a loss. Far better for them to pick up the ropes running with a pug / karma train or solo to figure everything out
    Which is why the guild groups generally run tagless, looking at that comment out of context it looks quite eliteist, however it is a valid point if you want to win fights.
    When was the last time you tried to run solo, all servers are so zergy now that any attempt to run around on your own will get you gangked pretty quickly and more so if you are new.
    Still there is no reason why occassionally some of the people from our dedicated WvW guilds can't lead the pugs, and explain how WvW works (in mumble or mapchat), they are after all our most experienced players and passing on that knowledge can only be a good thing.
    The community used to run training nights, which don't appear to have happened in a long time. There is a lot

    manveruppd's comment about the cross border chat was also a good point, I quietly left the chat when we had turned everything green and so did a few other people, although I would point out that part of the reason I went in there in the first place was because Cry Havoc were in there with a bunch of people from various WvW guilds and up until we turned everything green (or mostly green) there was plenty of discussion about the fights and where we needed people to be.
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  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawksbane View Post
    I honestly don't know how you can claim this in a week when ~15 people from RAGE paid gems to move servers for a week. I'm sure you know full well that there are plenty of people in the community with commander tags and you only need 4 up at any one time.

    Which is why the guild groups generally run tagless, looking at that comment out of context it looks quite eliteist, however it is a valid point if you want to win fights.
    When was the last time you tried to run solo, all servers are so zergy now that any attempt to run around on your own will get you gangked pretty quickly and more so if you are new.
    Still there is no reason why occassionally some of the people from our dedicated WvW guilds can't lead the pugs, and explain how WvW works (in mumble or mapchat), they are after all our most experienced players and passing on that knowledge can only be a good thing.
    The community used to run training nights, which don't appear to have happened in a long time. There is a lot
    Two things here:

    1) RAGE transfer is about 9 people to a medium pop server, is not a commander tag cost to those individuals (at least at my last count). Even if it is, paying gems to transfer in order to keep enjoying the game is also a lot different to spending that money on a tag you do not need to use in your preferred method of gaming. Furthermore commanding or training randoms for any long period of time or regularity can be a damn stressful task, let alone when you've have had to pay real money for it. Also worth noting the few regularly active pug commanders we do have do tend to be from WvW guilds - HT commanders, and also Gwyn as well runs his own WvW guild CORE. Not everyone can be Gwyn, as you need the patience of a saint and even then he's still had his ragequit moments

    2) Your point also doesn't answer my main argument, in fact with reference to number of tags in community it arguably supports it - why does it have be a WvW guild leading? There are already more than enough responsibilities to being in one - the time commitment to attend raids, to keep up with the skill meta, the gear and consumable requirements, plus the raid leader is often also guild leader with all the responsibility there as well. Now they're expected to outright carry the community as well? Where are the community commanders leading the pugs on a regular basis? There is absolutely no shortage of people with the experience required who aren't in the serious wvw guilds. You don't need to be in a wvw guild to understand the basics and impart them to others.

    As for server events, there is one a week planned for whole of September, also guilds have taken it in turns to have open mics or having guests in mumble subchannels.

    I suppose what I really don't like is people having undue expectations of others, especially when it's to those in guilds who are already putting a lot of energy and time into that specific facet of the game, while at the same time also not doing anything about it themselves. If you feel there aren't enough commander tags, get one and use it (or in some cases where people even asked money for one - use it). If you feel there aren't enough events to help new players, start one. It doesn't have to be the most experienced people to get it working. In fact usually the most experienced should be the last ones doing it, as they already sink enough time in as it is.
    Last edited by sendmark; 28-08-2013 at 12:57 AM.

  19. #559
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    The discussion about guild vs. community channels has been going on for some time now. In my view, you can't and probably shouldn't force groups of players or individuals to play the game in a certain way, even it might be better for the community. At the same time, I do miss the evenings together with lots and lots of people in one big channel, even it was a bit unorganised and probably stressful for those trying to keep things in check. That's a personal opinion and I don't want anyone to give up their playing style to have that back. Instead, I ask myself what could be done to improve the general feeling of a community while keeping everyone happy. One idea would be to have more events like the RPS/PRXM nights, where people get to know each other better and learn to coordinate movement and attacks, which might carry over to regular nights or foster communication between commanders on the map. Of course that would require people to get involved in WvW on a more regular basis so people recognise you and some people might be reluctant to commit to this.

    I agree with sendmark concerning his point that if you want to see some change go ahead and give it a shot. That's exactly what the RPS commanders have been doing. We might not have a person instructing people in WvW every night or even every week, but I know that when Duke, Karuji, noaru or any other RPS commander is running around the Borderlands they always try to use map chat and include "random" players into their event.

    For some time I had been thinking about getting a tag by myself but (maybe) like others, I have always shyed away from the implicit responsibility that comes with it. I might give tag-less commanding a try at some point and see how it goes.

  20. #560
    Lesser Hivemind Node hawksbane's Avatar
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    I did say I agree with your general argument, I honestly don't think that forcing guilds out of their channels is going to benefit anyone or address the underlying problem; which is engaging with people outside the community either in WvW or PvE and cross Guild cooperation in WvW. Neither of these are discussions for this forum.

    1) HT commanders, and also Gwyn as well runs his own WvW guild CORE. - I have a lot of respect for the HT commanders and Gwyn for this, as I know it can be difficult; but there are a number of WvW guilds and I'm pretty sure if something was organised each week that a different person could run a training event for 2 months.

    2) Why does it have be a WvW guild leading? - It doesn't, at least not always; but I fail to see why OCCASIONALLY, if for example there is no other tag on the map, that someone from a raiding guild couldn't tag up and lead the pugs until another commander came in.

    As for server events, there is one a week planned for whole of September, also guilds have taken it in turns to have open mics or having guests in mumble subchannels. - This is great, where are they advertised? I can't see anything in the community forums about them.

    I suppose what I really don't like is people having undue expectations of others,
    It isn't about having expectations of any one particular person it's about everybody realising that the more accessible that facet of the game is for people the more people will play it. One of the most common complaints I see on the community forums is the volatile nature of the WvW population - do you think that's a coincidence?

    Let me give you an example from a casual WvW player:
    Sometimes I go into WvW and everything is ours; so I leave and do something else (admittedly only recently).
    Sometimes I go into WvW and there is no tag and I roam on my own for while until I get bored or gangked too many times and then leave.
    Sometimes I go into WvW and there is a tag up and I follow the commander and really enjoy myself
    Sometimes I go into mumble and it's empty, so I leave

    you see a pattern here?

    and yes, I do think that if people want to see things change they should be prepared to push that change themselves, and I also think that as a fairly large guild that is still well known in WvW we are probably the best placed to push for it, and that means we need to engage more in the community, something we are not doing enough of.
    Last edited by hawksbane; 28-08-2013 at 02:06 PM.
    Hawksbane | Ripley Hawkswind | Anthrax Lake | Fuschia Panthera

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